of the civil rights era. The photo of the Reverend Dr Martin Luther
King Jr riding one of the first desegregated Busses in Montgomery,
Alabama, the iconic image of black sanitation workers carrying I
am a man signs in Memphis.
And he was the only photo journalist to document the entire trial
in the murder of Emmett Till, But Withers was also an FBI informant
funneling information to the bureau about the civil rights movement
and its leaders. Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Wesley Lowery
joins us now to talk about his new podcast called Unfinished Ernie
Secret, which explores the government's efforts to infiltrate and
disrupt the civil rights movement.
And the man who was caught in the middle. It's great to have you
here at the podcast is phenomenal. Thank you so much. I'm glad you're
enjoying it. So tell me more about Ernie Withers, who he was apart
from his life as an FBI informant because his biography in so many
ways is a cross section of Memphis history. It's a cross section
of American history. He's this World War two vet the first one of
the first black cops in Memphis.
And then he becomes a freelance photographer. Ernest Withers is fascinating,
and it gets into photography and part while he's in the armed services.
He would take photos
of the other enlisted men and sell them to them so they could send
them back to their wives and girlfriends. Or maybe both their wife
and girlfriend depending on the guy, right giving correct, right.
Yeah, well, he was He was smart, industrious guy, right? And so he
when he gets back to Memphis, there's a stint as a police officer
but then becomes essentially the black photographer in Memphis. And
so he documented everything.
Homecomings re passes just everyday black life. He also was obsessed
with Negro League baseball. And so he would travel and and and shoot
photos of all of these black baseball players across the country,
and also Memphis has Stax records at it.
And so he photographs, so many musicians being
Elvis and Aretha Franklin and Tina and Ike and so many folks. And
so, In fact, when you go to Memphis, his old studio on Beale Street
is now a museum, where you can see this remarkable collection of
photographs by Ernest And how did he find his way into those moments
where he was so close to Dr King and so many other icons of the civil
rights movement?
Ernest Withers is probably best known for his civil rights work.
He photographed basically every major campaign across the south.
He's present when James MEREDITH is integrating Ole Miss. He's in
the room when two men are being charged with the murder of Emmett
Till he's there. When King is writing the first desegregated bus
and part of it was that he was just kind of everywhere. He was something
you trusted. He was a piece of the furniture, you know, and he was
someone who, especially the civil rights leaders.
Knew and respected and believed would tell the story accurately right?
That would document what was happening, and so people were happy
to have earnest around. You know, Andrew Young, one of King's chief
lieutenants told us you know that they always answered Ernest College.
He wanted information. They always gave it to him. And all the while
he was living this second life as an FBI informant during what is
now this infamous period of American history where the FBI was involved
in domestic surveillance, illegal domestic surveillance. Why wouldn't
Ernest Withers?
Be valuable to a J. Edgar Hoover at the time.
So we have to remember the FBI at the time had no black agents right?
They couldn't just show up at a civil rights meeting. In fact, this
was a time when FBI agents were particularly being recruited by Hoover
to be you know, white guy Republicans from Omaha right at a specific
look, and we love Omaha's, right. But you know what? I mean, right?
They had a very specific clean cut. Look, that is not the best workforce
If the thing you're trying to do is infiltrated black civil rights
movement that's playing out primarily in urban centers across the
country, right?
And so these human assets became vitally important for the FBI people
who could be in a room who knew everyone's name who would introduce
themselves Who could ask for someone's address? And it not be suspicious.
And so what Er descends of being is a sponge of information Now.
He already was one right. He was a local photographer. He knew everybody
and their mother and their cousin. He knew where they lived in their
birthday was right. So what? He had a lot of information, But now
the FBI was able to kind of prime him for it and ask for questions.
A lot of what
Ernest did was he sold them photographs, photographs he would take
otherwise and that he might otherwise sell to the Associated Press
or to the black paper. He'd shoot a protest all day He'd get all
the caption information. And then he'd sell the role of films, the
FBI and now suddenly, at a time before the Internet before a lot
of the databases we now have in law enforcement Now has they now
have photographs and names and, in some cases, addresses and phone
numbers for people who they otherwise might not have known how to
track
One of the primary threads that runs through the podcast is sort
of the moral ambiguity of the day that in many ways, Mr Withers didn't
have a choice that when the federal government comes and says, you
know, we want information that only you can provide.
He didn't really have a choice. It's interesting, right when you
listen to Ernest Withers, his family and the one time he ever addressed
this before he passed right. There's an insistence that he was not
an informant in the worst sense of the word right that he was someone
who was selling photographs that the FBI was a customer like anyone
else and that also, what was he supposed to do? He's a black man
at a time when black men don't even have the right to vote.
The federal government has come to him and said We need to stop the
communist infiltration because that was the pretense into which Hoover
harassed the civil rights leaders, including King and here, you have
this black man with six Children to feed who is not particularly
wealthy. And how do we gauge now? So many years later if he thought
he had a real choice when he was asked to do these things, or if
he didn't as I was listening to the podcast, my ears perked up when
I heard the voice of Ambassador Andrew Young. The reason I bring
him up is because
He told you that he wasn't surprised that there was someone spying
on the work that they were doing that there was an FBI informant
in their midst. But he also suggested that he didn't care all that
much that in his mind, he had nothing to hide. The SCLC at the time
had nothing to hide. And as he saw it, it was good to be super transparent,
whether it was with the FBI or whomever about the work that they
were doing.
That is what Andrew Young said. It's actually interesting. I've gotten
a lot of feedback on that particular quote from people right. I know
I know. Modern day activists who are like what's wrong with Andrew
Young. Is he serious, like, Can you believe that effort from other
people, though? I guess that makes sense. But those activists are
pretty young, so they are right, and I think it cuts in a few different
directions. The first is that a lot of the people from the time people
who knew Ernest in real time
Have been pretty forgiving of of this information that's come out.
Part of it, I think is so much time has passed right. A lot of this
is in in the rear view mirror. There's also a reality where is frustrated
and upset as people are about the FBI surveillance. The idea of holding
Ernest personally accountable for what was clearly the sense of one
of those powerful institutions in American society is something I
think A lot of the black activists are willing to
kind of be kind about.
But there are other activists were furious with him who are really
upset Dick Gregory when this news initially broke, called him Judas.
I do wonder if we could go back in time and interviewing Andrew Young
40 years younger 50 years younger, if perhaps he might be less generous
to Ernest Withers in real time as he is, in retrospect, it's an interesting
question. Wesley Lowery, the podcast is a fascinating look.
At a really important part of American history. Congratulations.
Thanks so much for having me It's available everywhere Wherever using
your podcast wherever you listen to your podcast Appreciate you,