-Dr. Mitchell recommended to you
that the tapes be destroyed?
-All of us were concerned about the tapes.
-An advocate for destroying the tapes.
-I thought those videotapes should be destroyed.
-These are videotapes that were subsequently destroyed.
-At the time Jose destroyed the tapes.
-President Trump's pick for CIA director,
veteran spy Gina Haspel,
insists she did not realize that the tapes
of post-9/11 interrogations would be destroyed.
-There's been much debate and much news coverage
about Jose Rodriguez,
the former Director of the National Clandestine Service,
and his decision to direct the destruction
of the detainee interrogation videotapes.
Can you describe for the members your role in those events?
-I was Chief of Staff to the Deputy Director for Operations
that is head of the Clandestine Service.
The tape issue had lingered at CIA
for a period of about three years.
-The tapes documented interrogation sessions
using brutal techniques,
including waterboarding with Al-Qaeda detainees.
-I didn't like the fact that the tapes were out there.
I had a visceral reaction to the tapes.
I thought they were ugly. -Had you seen them?
-Of course I saw them. -Mm-hmm.
-I felt it was important to have the tapes destroyed
because I needed to protect the people
who were there in the black sites.
And they were not just my people,
but they were also people from other directorates
that were involved with our team
conducting the enhanced interrogation program.
We were very concerned about it
and had been trying to get them destroyed for years.
-In May of 2005, Mr. Rizzo reports,
"I told Jose and his Chief of Staff --"
That was you. Is that correct?
"I can't recall if I talked to them separately or together.
They were crestfallen because they were now on notice
that the DNI, two successive White House counsels,
and the Vice President's top lawyer had weighed
in strongly against destroying the tapes."
Do you recall that conversation?
-Senator, I don't recall that specific conversation.
However, I was aware that there were some objections.
And that is why Jose was going to go back to the Director.
-With all respect, those aren't some objections.
Those are very straightforward prohibitions by your superiors
to not destroy the tapes, were they not?
-Senator, I don't recall that specific conversation.
-By the fall of 2005,
the question of what do do with the tapes
had been quiet for several months.
But then the CIA was hit with a pair of new threats.
-Then-Senator Levin introduced legislation
to create a commission modeled on the 9/11 Commission
to look into the agency's treatment of detainees.
-On October 31, senior CIA counsel John Rizzo
sent an e-mail outlining his concern about the proposal.
-Were you aware of Senator Levin's actions?
-Senator Warner, what I recall
were the security issues surrounding the tapes.
I don't recall pending legislation.
-On November 2, The Washington Post
publish an extensive report on CIA black sites.
Rodriguez was among those enlisted to dissuade the paper
from publishing some details.
On November 3, the federal judge overseeing the Moussaoui trial
ordered the government to search for any video
or audio of captured militants.
On November 4, Haspel and Rodriguez contacted the base
where the tapes were being held
and described how to ask permission to destroy the tapes.
-A great deal of public interest just that week
in the whole interrogation question.
Were you aware of that when you made this decision?
-Senator, I do not recall being aware of that.
-According to a press story today
about the destruction of the interrogation videotapes,
Jose Rodriguez told you in advance
that he was going to take matters into his own hands.
Did that conversation happen?
-Senator, no, it did not.
Mr. Rodriguez indicated to me
that he planned to discuss it with the then-Director Goss.
-Mr. Rodriguez said that he asked you
to ask two questions of the lawyers the day
before the drafting of the cable.
One was was it legal to destroy the tapes?
Second, did he have the authority?
Did you mention to those lawyers the intention to issue a cable
that would destroy the tapes
when you asked those two questions,
or were those the only questions you asked?
-No, Senator, I explained
that Mr. Rodriguez
wanted to get resolution on this issue
and that he was planning to have a conversation
with the Director about it
and he needed to have revalidation
of those two points.
-Rodriguez said the answer she got to both questions was yes.
-So, again, you got assurance from your lawyers
that destroying the tapes was legal?
-Correct. -Mr.
Rodriguez asked me to prepare a cable
because he was going to have another conversation
with then-Director of the Agency to talk about this issue again.
I did so.
-At the time Jose destroyed the tapes -- -What did he do?
-He ordered that a cable be written to the field
ordering the destruction of the tapes.
And at the time, the Director of CIA, Porter Goss,
was opposed to the destruction of the tapes.
At the time, the DNI, John Negroponte,
was opposed to the destruction of the tapes.
At the time, the White House counsel, Harriet Miers,
was opposed to the destruction of the tapes.
Jose, who I have great admiration for,
great admiration for, great officer, knew that,
knew that his superiors, DNI were opposed,
and knew White House Counsel was opposed.
Jose went ahead and did it anyway.
-He released the order, he believed on his own authority.
He took the decision himself,
and he said it was based on his own authority.
I asked him if he had had the consultation with the Director
at the time as planned,
and he said he decided
to take the decision on his own authority.
-And you were aware, because you drafted the cable,
that the lawyers weren't copied on the cable.
-But I knew that the lawyers had been consulted in a meeting
and consulted over many times over three years.
-When he found out what happened, Rizzo sent
a one-word e-mail --
"What? !"