[Hassan Ilyas] The first question of our today's program is
if it is said that the Taurat implies law
and nowhere in the Quran has it been mentioned
that Taurat has been revealed to Musa (AS)
then why cannot it be implied from the Taurat
every such law which we find in the Quran-e-Majeed
or in the guidance from our innate human nature, or from anywhere else
when the Quran has not mentioned it
that the Torah was a book and it was revealed specially to Musa (AS)
then why is the Taurat the one that is with Musa (AS)
and the one that Jewish people claim as their divine book
every time I ask such questions
my intention is to understand from you
the correct point of view to approach such things
and to reach a proper conclusion in all such matters
[Javed Ahmed Ghamidi] If you broadcast any news in the world today
then will you also inform where is New York situated?
[Hassan] No
[Ghamidi] Or where is Lahore situated?
Why won't you tell it?
It is because this thing is universally accepted, it is common knowledge
that is, each one of us is aware of this fact
we know that Lahore is a city in Pakistan
and we know that New York is a city in America
in the same way there are many other accepted facts
in which it is not required that you provide a footnote for every information
if you read Allama Iqbal's book 'Javed Nama'
in which he has in the manner of Dante
undertaken an imaginative journey through heavens
many things have been mentioned there
we know that we encounter some proper names in it
but they are from the imagination
and we know that
for instance, Jamaluddin Afghani has been mentioned in it
so who was Jamaluddin Afghani?
he does not need to be introduced
during those times, the Prime Minister of Turkey
Syed Halim Pasha
he has been mentioned
and even this did not require any introduction either
everyone knows that
in fact, he was not even properly introduced
therefore, whenever you read good literature
then it is extremely ignorant to expect
that such proper names what we call 'alam' in our language
that is, why are they called 'alam'?
what you also know as 'proper noun'
why are they called so?
that is because they are surely well-known
everyone knows what they are referring to.
so the world was already aware
of the revelation of the Quran from centuries ago
that Taurat is Allah's book
this is its name
this book was revealed to Musa (AS)
and the Jews were reading and presenting it as their book for centuries
so why was it needed that Quran-e-Majeed should introduce it
that it is that book which was revealed to Musa (AS)?
that is, that would be a completely useless attempt,
only those people can make such demands
who are neither aware of the Quran nor language, literature or its tradition
how can any person make such demands?
I'm having a conversation right now
and I could frankly quote some instances from the history of Muslims
I could mention Granada or Baghdad
so if you sit down to find the meaning of those proper names
I could mention Syedna Usman
and you know who he is
so do I need to tell that I'm mentioning 'Dhun-nurain'?
I'm mentioning Prophet Muhammad's (swt) son-in-law
I'm mentioning that Usman who was unjustly martyred
Do I need to tell this?
That is, if on any occasion if I'm narrating something about them
then I know that my audience is completely aware of Syedna Usaman
or would I open a dictionary
and tell you that 'usman' means snake
therefore, snakes can be found everywhere
so this 'usman' that is being mentioned
it is possible that it is found somewhere in Dallas as well
so one can only laugh at such stupidities
these do not have any basis
it should be seen that the words that are being used in a language
is their referent recognized and well known?
Are people aware of it and its history?
When Allama Iqbal said these lines in Javed Nama
sahib e sarmaya az nasl e khalil/ yaani aan paegambare be-jibraeel
so will I look up the meaning of 'sarmaya' in the dictionary
or will I immediately know that
here 'Das Kapital' is being referred to
so here as you can see that even the book has not been entirely named
despite this any man who knows how to read
and who knows Persian language and is acquainted with Iqbal
he does not have the slightest hesitation as to what does 'sahib e sarmaya' implies
the next sentence is telling us what it implies
so Allama Iqbal has not given any footnote there
that 'People be wary of who I mean here by 'sahib e sarmaya'
however, if there is any ambiguity at any place
then explanations are given
but to say that Taurat was such a thing
for which annotation was required
or Injeel is such a thing
or Syedna Musa and Syedna Isa are such personalities
who needed introductions?
every Arab child was aware of this
the word 'Taurat' was enough to know what it means
when you talk with Muslims at present
then do you need to annotate when you mention the word Taurat to them?
so this is completely absurd talk
one doesn't need to entertain these things
[Hassan] Okay, Ghamidi Saab
the principle as you described
that the accepted universal facts and intellect,
if you would try to understand them through the Kalam
then the text is not really explaining them
that is because the audience is already acquainted with them
I would like to present another example and ask one more question
we find that Bani Adam and Bani Isra'il are mentioned in the Quran
but it is said that Bani Ismail is not mentioned at all in the Quran
the word Bani Ismail is not even used
so what is the reason for this?
Bani Isra'il was mentioned several times
and the Quran also gave its introduction
that it was a nation and we gave you preference over the world
and generation after generation a prophet was born amidst you
so it is being named
then why doesn't Bani Ismail find any mention in the Quran-e-Majeed?
[Ghamidi] Why would there be any need to _
the people who were representing them were all Quraysh
they were now being known as such
hence they find mention in the Quran
and even if they weren't mentioned
then it would have not made a difference
that is the entire Quran could have not mentioned them anywhere.
There are so many Sahaba-e-Kiram
whose deeds have been alluded to in the Quran
those who took 'Bait-e-Rizwan' the Pledge of the Tree
have they been listed in the Quran?
the Quran mentions the Battle of Badr
it mentions the battle of Hunayn
it says that we helped you in Badr and in Hunayn
then is there any need for a formal reference below it?
so if any name is being invoked
then it can be only briefly alluded to,
and sometimes it can be used from a special aspect
and if it is not taken then there is no need for it
Bani Isra'll has been addressed
by their very name
that is because it is an entire tribe which has been addressed
by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the second stage of his Prophetic mission.
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has taken birth in the Quraysh
so why would He address them from the outside, so to speak.
they have been addressed in the same way
The nations of Saleh and Hud were addressed
and they were addressed as 'my brothers'
[Hassan] Let's take this forward Ghamidi Saab
Another thing that is described in a similar manner is that
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is not a person
rather he is an essence, a quality, a soul
who after reading an ayat of Allah
becomes manifest to a believer
so how would be this proven
that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was a messenger
and an argument that is made in favour of this
is that where has it been said in the Quran,
that O Muhammad you are a person and you are from them
and that you have been sent as a messenger
and it is said that it has been mentioned in the Quran
that Muhammad is not a father to any of you men, i.e. isn't related to you,
so if we accept that he was a person
then it would be a rejection of the Quran
when the Quran itself is saying that
that he (pbuh) is not a father to any of you men.
[Ghamidi] It has been said that
he is not a father to any of you men
The Prophet (pbuh) did not have
a male child,
and it became necessary to mention this
because when the adopted son divorced his wife
the matter of marriage and divorce has come under discussion
so this is the reason for it
Quran-e-Majeed does not declaim such information without reason
nor is it a history book
as I just mentioned that all those people
who accompanied Allah ta'la's messenger in the Battle of Badr
in fact in 'Ghar e Hira', the Cave of Hira
the teachings that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) received
which we have mentioned in detail
you do not find a name for it in Quran-e-Majeed either
the place where he hid, 'gaar e thaur'
it has also been mentioned as 'al-gaar'
in the same way the companion who is with him
so look how they have been mentioned!
so one needs to understand the style of the Quran
the Quran is an extraordinary example of literature
why would the things that are being demanded be present in it?
these things can only be said by someone
who is not acquainted with Deen, literature and knowledge
when you say Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) or Abu Bakar
then tell me are you mentioning a soul or a person?
so Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) personality
is an established historical fact.
That is, it is not a story from the past
it is not that these are incidences
from pre-history that are being narrated
there is a glorious history
in which He was given prophethood
He (pbuh) had a family that we know about
we are aware of his place of birth
the stages of the Prophetic mission
we are aware of the circumstances before Hijrah
this is accepted universal knowledge
and in this when proper names are used
then there is only one principle applicable
to such questions that you are raising
when proper nouns are used
then they are already a part of an existing tradition of knowledge
and they are understood within that ambit of existing common knowledge
the person who seeks the meaning of proper nouns
he is doing just as good as implying that 'Usman' actually means snake
and he starts looking for Usman in the deserts
so people keep committing such follies
and it should not be made a subject of discussion