THE TIE-UPS AT THE U.S.-CANADIAN
BORDER CREATED QUITE A FEW
PROBLEMS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE
RIVER BUT ALSO SHOWED US AN
INTERESTING COLLISION OVER
POLICIES REGARDING THE
CORONAVIRUS.
CANADA HAS FAR FEWER CASES AND
DEATHS PER CAPITA BUT WITH
TIGHTER RESTRICTIONS AND
CONTROLS THAT HAD SOME CANADIANS
REACHING THE BOILING POINT.
WHAT ARE WE LEARNING ABOUT
POLICY AND PANDEMIC?
LET’S TALK ABOUT IT WITH
DR. VENN, AN INFECTIOUS DISEASE
SPECIALIST REGARDED AS ONE OF
THE TOP EM DEEM --
EPIDEMIOLOGISTS IN THE COUNTRY.
DR. VAN, I WANT TO START WITH
YOU.
LET’S START WITH WHETHER IT
FEELS POSSIBLE TO YOU TO REALLY
COMPARE THE U.S. AND CANADIAN
RESPONSES.
ARE WE ALIKE ENOUGH OR ARE THERE
TOO MANY POPULATION AND SYSTEM
DIFFERENCES TO BE HELPFUL?
>> WELL, I HAVE TO TELL YOU, I
THINK THE DIFFERENCES ARE PRETTY
ENORMOUS.
WE ARE NORTH AMERICAN NEIGHBORS.
I LIVED IN THE U.S. AND I HAVE A
LOT OF FRIENDS IN THE U.S. BUT I
THINK THERE ARE DIFFERENCES ON
MAJOR LEVELS.
FIRST AND FOREMOST IS OUR HEALTH
CARE SYSTEM.
IT PROVIDES EQUAL ACCESS TO
MEDICAL CARE REGARDLESS OF YOUR
SOCIO ECONOMIC STATUS AND OF
COURSE, WE ALSO HAVE A DIFFERENT
FRAMEWORK FOR HOW HEALTH CARE IS
GOVERNED AND ROLLED OUT AND WE
ALSO HAVE DIFFERENCES OBVIOUSLY
IN ADHERENCE TO THE PUBLIC
POLICIES.
>> WE DO HAVE -- I WAS SURPRISED
TO READ, WE ARE MORE ALIKE THAN
NOT WHEN IT COMES TO THINGS LIKE
OBESITY AND HYPERTENSION RATES.
A LOT OF THE SORT OF
COMORBIDITIES, CORRECT?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
OUR AGE PYRAMIDS ARE SIMILAR IN
TERMS OF WE HAVE A VERY HEAVY,
YOU KNOW, ELDERLY AND FRAIL
ELDERLY POPULATIONS BOTH
INSTITUTIONALIZED AND COMMUNITY
DWELLING.
WE HAVE A LOT OF SIMILAR
COMORBIDITY RATES, THE SAME IN
TERMS OF CANCER AND OBESITY AND
HEART DISEASE SO THAT IN ITSELF
CERTAINLY DOESN’T EXPLAIN THE
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE
COUNTRIES.
>> DR. BAKER, WHEN YOU LOOK AT
IT ON THE FACE OF IT, CANADA FAR
FEWER DEATHS, FEWER CASES PER
CAPITA, IS IT JUST THAT SIMPLE?
CANADA DID A BETTER JOB OF
MANAGING THIS THAN WE DID OR IS
IT MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN
THAT?
>> I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT ALL OF
THIS, THEY DID A MUCH BETTER JOB
THAN WE DID.
YOU LOOK AT VACCINATION RATES.
THEY WERE OVER 80% AND WE WERE
63% OR SO.
THEY DID A MUCH BETTER JOB
THERE.
BUT THERE’S ONE THING THAT I
THINK THEY DID REALLY WELL AT IS
THE CONSISTENCY IN RESPONSE.
WE SEEM TO GO BACK AND FORTH.
WE HAVE LEFT UP ON RESTRICTIONS
BEFORE WE GOT THE POPULATION
VACCINATED AND THAT DID TWO
THINGS.
NUMBER ONE, IT ALLOWED A LOT OF
PEOPLE TO GET SICK AND DIE BUT
THE OTHER THING IS IT UNDERMINED
COMPETENCE IN WHAT THE
GOVERNMENT WAS DOING.
THE PEOPLE WOULD SEE THE
OUTBREAKS AND THINKING WHAT
WE’RE DOING ISN’T WORKING.
THE VACCINES MUST NOT WORK.
THEY HAVE CREATED A LOT OF
PROBLEMS.
WE THEN TRIED TO BACKTRACK AND
GET PEOPLE COVERED.
>> PRIME MINISTER GOT TO LEAD
CANADA THROUGH THE WHOLE THING
MUCH -- WHOLE THING.
WE HAD AN ELECTION THAT
COMPLICATED THINGS.
>> IT CERTAINLY DID COMPLICATE
THINGS.
I THINK THERE WERE PROBLEMS ON
BOTH PARTIES AS FAR AS THE
APPROACH TO THIS BUT EVEN BEFORE
THE ELECTION, PEOPLE WERE
RELEASING RESTRICTIONS BEFORE
THE POPULATION WAS PROTECTED AND
THE KEY FOR THESE RESTRICTIONS
WAS, THEY WERE REALLY A
TEMPERIZING MEASURE UNTIL THERE
WAS A VACCINE OR ANTI-VIRAL DRUG
AND UNFORTUNATELY, MORE WERE
ABLE TO WAIT LONG ENOUGH TO GET
ENOUGH PEOPLE VACCINATED THAT
THE POPULATION WAS PROTECTED.
>> AS I MENTIONED AT THE TOP OF
THE PROGRAM, THERE IS SOMETHING
VERY MUCH IN THE CANADIAN
CHARACTER ABOUT BEING COMPLIANT
AND FOLLOWING THE RULES AND YET,
WE ALSO SAW THAT WE WERE
ARRIVING, I GUESS, AT SORT OF
THE BREAKING POINT FOR A LOT OF
FOLKS IN CANADA OVER THE
RESTRICTIONS.
MAYBE THINGS HAVE TIMED OUT
PRETTY WELL HERE THAT WE’RE
STARTING TO SEE OMICRON SUBSIDE.
COULD CANADA HAVE GONE ON WITH
THE SAME LEVEL OF COMPLIANCE IF
IT HAD GONE PAST THIS OR NEEDED
TO GO MUCH PAST THIS POINT?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, FIRST OF ALL,
I THINK YOU RAISE A VERY
IMPORTANT POINT WHICH IS THAT
80% OR SO OF THE POPULATION
WANTED VACCINES SO WHEN THERE
WERE VACCINES THAT WERE MADE
AVAILABLE, IN FACT, AT THE
BEGINNING WE EVEN HAD A
RATIONING OF SUPPLIES THAT WAS
SORT OF A VERY STRATEGIC
APPROACH TO ROLLING OUT THE
VACCINES, TARGETING AND
PROVIDING INTO THE MOST
VULNERABLE, THE MOST ELDERLY AND
ROLLING THEM OUT TO DIFFERENT
PATIENT POPULATIONS BASED ON
CERTAIN RISK FACTORS AND AGE.
AT THAT POINT, PEOPLE WERE
GETTING THE VACCINES, THEY
BOUGHT INTO THE TWO DOSE
CONCEPT, EVENTUALLY PEOPLE ALSO
BOUGHT THE THREE OR FOUR DOSE
CONCEPT.
THIS PANDEMIC HAS STRETCHED OUT
TOO LONG.
IT’S COME WITH SCIENCE THAT HAS,
YOU KNOW, COME AT BREAK NECK
SPEED WHICH MAY GO OVER THE HEAD
OF A LOT OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC
AND AS A RESULT OF THAT, THERE’S
CHANGES IN POLICY AND EVEN
CHANGES IN THE NUMBER OF DOSES
REQUIRED AND THE TIMING AND THE
PROBLEM IS THAT AS THAT PANDEMIC
FATIGUE WAS A PERFECT NEST FOR
THE CONVOYS AND THE OTHER
PROTESTS THAT PEOPLE WERE
STARTING TO MANIFEST.
A MINORITY BUT THEY WERE
MANIFESTING AND THAT’S WHAT
YOU’RE SEEING RECENTLY.
>> IF WE COULD GET RID OF -- WE
HAD ALL THESE ARGUMENTS OVER
MASKS AND SOCIAL DISTANCING,
WHAT PLACES SHOULD BE OPEN,
CLOSED, THINGS LIKE THAT.
IF WE HAD JUST BEEN AS WILLING
TO ADOPT AND ADAPT TO THE
VACCINE AS CANADA WAS, WHAT
DIFFERENCE WOULD THAT HAVE MADE,
DO YOU THINK?
>> I THINK IT WOULD HAVE HELPED
TREMENDOUSLY BUT THEY MADE
MISTAKES EVEN BEFORE THAT.
WE WEREN’T CONSISTENT IN WHAT WE
WERE TELLING PEOPLE.
IF WE TOLD THOEM -- THEM TO
AVOID CROWDS, THEY WOULD ARE
DONE THAT.
WE WERE TELLING THEM TO WASH
DOWN SURFACES WITH BLEACH, EVEN
THEIR GROCERIES WHEN THEY CAME
HOME.
PEOPLE REALLY GOT CONFUSED.
EVEN THE GOVERNMENT INITIALLY
SUGGESTED WE DIDN’T NEED TO MASK
SO THERE WAS AN UNDERCURRENT OF
DISBELIEF BY THE TIME WE GOT THE
VACCINES.
THE VACCINES WERE
INAPPROPRIATELY MARKETED AS A
WAY TO STERILIZE THE POPULATION.
PEOPLE THEN BELIEVED THAT IF,
YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD NEVER GET
INFECTED IF THEY GOT THE VACCINE
AND THAT WAS NEVER THE POINT OF
THE VACCINE.
SO WHEN THEY STARTED SEEING
THESE SO-CALLED BREAKTHROUGH
INFECTIONS WHICH WERE INFREQUENT
AND INITIALLY VERY MILD, THEY
LOST FAITH IN THE VACCINE SO I
THINK INITIALLY THERE WAS A
GREAT IMPETUS TO GET VACCINATED
BUT WE ACTUALLY UNDERMINED OUR
OWN DESIRE TO GET VACCINATED
WITH THE MESSAGE BEING GIVEN.
>> THAT’S A PRETTY GOOD
INCAPSULIZATION OF A MISTAKE ON
OUR SIDE OF THE BORDER.
IF CANADA HAD TO DO IT ALL OVER
AGAIN, WERE THERE MISTAKES IN
THE CANADIAN APPROACH THAT YOU
COULD HAVE MADE?
IF IT HAPPENS AGAIN AND WE HAVE
TO DOUBT THIS MIGHT BE OUR LAST
GO AROUND WITH THE PANDEMIC,
RIGHT?
>> THE ISSUES THAT DR. BAKER
RAISED WERE ALSO PROBLEMS HERE.
THE OVERSELLING OF THE IMPACT OF
THE VACCINES, THERE WAS A MIXED
MESSAGING BY GOVERNMENT, YOU
KNOW, PUBLIC HEALTH POLICY OR
AGENCIES SO ALL OF THAT HAPPENED
HERE.
THE ISSUE, HOWEVER, IS THAT IT
DIDN’T HAPPEN IN SUCH A
POLARIZED FASHION ON THE FIRST
TWO YEARS OR SO AND IT ALSO
WASN’T ONE OR THE OTHER.
SO IT WASN’T WE DIDN’T MASK.
WE UPGRADED TO BETTER TYPES OF
MASKS FOR INDOOR SPACES AT A
MUCH LONGER PERIOD OF TIME AS
THE UNITED STATES AS WE WERE
DOING OTHER THINGS LIKE THE
ROLLING OUT OF VACCINES AND ALL
THE OTHER MEASURES.
SO I THINK WHAT HAPPENED FOR US
IS THAT WE WERE PERHAPS SLOW TO
COME OUT OF THE STARTING GATES
BUT WE HAD A LOT OF LAYERED
APPROACHES.
WE WEREN’T PERFECT, TRUST ME,
AND OUR GOVERNMENTS, BOTH THE
LOCAL AND FEDERAL LEVEL ARE
PERHAPS TO SOME OF US ABANDONING
SHIP A LITTLE TOO EARLY AND
THERE’S SOME CONCERNS ON THAT
END BUT I THINK UNTIL NOW WE’VE
BEEN ABLE TO USE MULTIPLE LAYERS
THROUGH VACCINATIONS AND OTHER
PUBLIC HEALTH RESTRICTIONS AND
SOCIAL ACTIVITIES TO KEEP THINGS
SOMEWHAT UNDER CONTROL.
>> I HAVE A COUPLE OF SECONDS
LEFT.
IF SOMETHING LIKE THIS WERE TO
HAPPEN AGAIN IN THE U.S., HAVE
WE BEEN ABLE TO LEARN ANY
LESSONS MOVING FORWARD OR ARE WE
STILL SO POLARIZED AND MRIT I
CANNIZED THAT WE CAN’T FASHION A
BETTER APPROACH?
>> THAT’S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.
I THINK WE ARE INCREDIBLY
POLARIZED BUT ONE THING WE NEED
TO UNDERSTAND IS THESE ARE
INHERENTLY POLITICAL DECISIONS
AND THEY CAN’T EXIST IN THE
VACUUM SO WE NEED TO GET THE
GOVERNMENT TOGETHER AND SPEAKING
WITH ONE VOICE EARLY ON TO HAVE
AN EFFECTIVE RESPONSE AND THAT’S
SOMETHING THAT DIDN’T HAPPEN
HERE.
>> SURE DIDN’T.
DR. BAKER, DR. VAN, GREAT