♪ WELCOME BACK, OUR GUEST TONIGHT IS AN HISTORIAN,
PHILOSOPHER AND BEST SELLING AUTHOR OF SAPAN HODAIS AND 21
LESSONS FOR THE 2 13S CENTURY ONE OF THE BRIGHTERREST MINDS,
HAVE I WANTED TO HAVE HIM ON AS A GUEST FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF
YEARS AND THIS FEELS LIKE PERHAPS THE PERFECT TIME, WILL
TALK US TO ABOUT WHAT THE WORLD MIGHT LOOK LIKE ONCE THIS STORM
PASSES, JOINING US TODAY FROM HIS HOME NEAR JERUSALEM.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.
>> James: HOW ARE YOU BEARING UP OVER THERE, ARE YOU OKAY?
>> YES, I THINK SO.
MY HUSBAND AND ME ARE LOCKED UP IN OUR HOUSE ON THE OUTCIRCUITS
BETWEEN JERUSALEM AND TEL AVIV.
>> James: YOU DO HAVE ONE OF THOSE MINDS THAT I THINK PEOPLE
LOOK IN TIMES LIKE.
THIS I KNOW THAT I DO.
AND SO I WANT TO DIVE STRAIGHT IN.
THE FIRST THING I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IS HOW DO YOU THINK THE
WORLD WILL BE DIFFERENT WHEN WE'VE GOT THROUGH THIS PANDEMIC.
>>S THAT COMPLETELY DEPENDS ON-- ST NOT PREDETERMINED STRKS
NOT DETERMINISTIC.
ST OUR CHOICE.
WE HAVE A LOT OF BIG CHOICES TO MAKE.
ONE BIG CHOILINGS IS WHETHER WE DEAL WITH THIS CRISIS THROUGH
NATIONALISTIC ISOLATION, EACH COUNTRY COMPETING WITH ALL THE
OTHERS FOR THE SCARS RESOURCES OR WHETHER WE DEAL WITH IT
THROUGH INTERNATIONAL SOLIDARITY AND COOPERATION.
AND WHICH THIS WILL SHAPE NOT JUST THE CRISIS BUT ALSO THE
WORLD FOR YEARS TO COME.
EARLY ON THE LEVEL OF EACH INDIVIDUAL COUNTRY, EACH COUNTRY
HAS TO CHOOSE WHETHER IT DEALS WITH THE CRISIS IN AN
AUTHORITARIAN WAY BY EMPOWERING SOME DICTATOR OR POWERFUL
AUTHORITY OR WHETHER IT DEALS WITH THE CRISIS BY EMPOWERING
THE CITIZENS AND TEACHING DEMOCRATIC CHECKS AND BALANCES.
AND WE SEE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES ADOPTING VERY DIFFERENT
APPROACHES.
AND THIS IS OBVIOUSLY SHAPED THIS COUNTRY FOR YEARS TO COME.
NOT JUST FOR A FEW WEEKS.
BUT IN THE COMING WEEKS, ARE THE CRITICAL POINTS.
IN WHICH THESE DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE, WHATEVER COMES
AFTERWARDS, IT IS LIKE COMING TO A PARTY AFTER THE PARTY IS OVER
AND THE ONLY THING LEFT TO DO IS TO WASH THE DISHES.
NOW THEY ARE HANDING OUT TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS, THEY ARE
CHAFNLGING THE JOB MARKET.
WHOEVER KOSMS IN 2021 WILL FIND IT VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO KIND
OF REWIND THE MOVIE AND TRY SOMETHING ELSE.
>> James: THERE IS SUCH MISTRUST OF POLITICIANS,
SCIENTISTS, RIGHT NOW AREN'T BEING HEARD AND LISTENED TO IN
THE MANNER THAT I THINK THEY PROBABLY SHOULD BE.
WHY DO YOU THINK THIS IS?
AND TRUST IS A FUMENTD ISSUE IN ALL OF THIS, RIGHT?
>> YEAH, WITHOUT TRUST WE CAN'T DEAL WITH THERE CRISIS
EFFECTIVELY.
IN RECENT YEARS WE HAD POLL DIGS-- POLITICIANS DELIBERATELY
UNDERMINE THE TRUST IN PUBLIC AUTHORITIES, IN SCIENCE, IN THE
MEDIA.
AND NOW WE ARE PAYING THE PRICE OF IT YOU KNOW, IN NORMAL TIMES
MAYBE YOU CAN RUN A COUNTRY WHEN ONLY HALF THE POPULATION
TRUSTLESS THE GOVERNMENT, MAYBE.
BUT IN EMERGENCIES LIKE THIS, YOU NEED A HUNDRED PERSZ OF THE
PEOPLE TO TRUST THE GOVERNMENT AND THE AUTHORITIES.
IF YOU GET ADVICE FROM THE HEAD OF GOVERNMENT AND HALF THE
POPULATION GOES AND SAYING WITH THIS PERSON HAS BB LYING TO ME
FOR YEARS, WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE IT NOW, IT IS GOING TO BE VERY
DIFFICULT TO HANDLE THE CRISIS.
I THINK THE GOOD SIGN THOUGH IS THAT AT LEAST WHEN IT COMES TO
SCIENCE AND SCIENTIFIC AUTHORITY WE SEE THAT ALMOST ALL OVER THE
WORLD PEOPLE HAVE A HIDDEN RESERVOIR OF DEEP TRUST IN
SCIENCE, DESPITE THE RECENT YEARS OF ATTACKS ON SCIENCE.
IN MY HOME COUNTRY OF ISRAEL, THE GOVERNMENT CLOSED DOWN THE
SYNAGOGUE.
IRAN THEY CLOSED DOWN THE MOSS PECS.
CHURCHES ALL OVER THE WORLD ARE TELLING PEOPLE STAY AWAY FROM
THE CHURCH.
WHY?
BECAUSE THE SCIENTISTS SAID SO.
SO EVEN THESE RELIGIOUS ESTABLISHMENTS WHEN IT COMES TO
A REAL EMERGENCY, THEY TRUST IN SCIENCE MORE THAN IN ANYTHING
ELSE.
AND THAT'S A GOOD SIGN.
I HOPE AFTER THE CRISIS IS OVER PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER WHO THEY
REALLY TRUSTED IN THE MOMENT OF TRUTH AND AFTERWARDS WHEN
SCIENTISTS WARN US ABOUT ECOLOGICAL COLLAPSE OR CLIMATE
CHANGE, WE TAKE IT WITH THE SAME TRUST IN THE SAME PERIOD THAT WE
NOW LISTEN TO THE SCIENTISTS TELLING US ABOUT IT THEN.
>> WHEN WE MOVE FORWARD HOW DO YOU THINK THIS TIME WILL IMPACT
HOW WE SOCIALLY INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER GOING FORWARD, WHAT
DO YOU THINK THE BIG CHANGES WILL BE?
>> THERE COULD BE BIG CHANGES IN THE JOB MARKET, IN THE
UNIVERSITY.
SOME UNIVERSITIES MOVE ONLINE, THEN THIS WILL CREATE A
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SOCIAL ATMOSPHERE FOR THE STUDENTS, AND
WHEN I WENT TO UNIVERSITY, TO SCHOOL, THE MOST INTERESTING AND
IPORTANT THINGS HAPPENED IN THE BREAK.
ALL THE CLASSES ARE ON ZOOM, THERE ARE NO, THERE ARE NO
BREAKS.
SO SOME THINGS ARE GOING TO CHANGE DRAMICALLY, PROGRAMS.
BUT THE FUNDAMENTALS OF HUMAN NATURE WILL NOT CHANGE.
WE ARE SOCIAL ANIMALS.
WE LIKE, VERY MUCH LIKE CONTACT.
WHEN SOMEBODY IS SICK WE USUALLY WANT TO COME AND HELP THEM.
THE FP WE NOW MAKE A CHANGE OUR BEHAVIOR BUT I DON'T THINK WE
NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THE FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE IN HUMAN
NATURE.
YOU KNOW, THE BLACK DEATH DIDN'T CHANGE HUMAN NATURE.
1918 INFLUENZA EPIDEMIC DIDN'T CHANGE HUMAN NATURE AND COVID-19
ALSO WILL NOT CHANGE HUMAN NATURE.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE MAYBE THE LAST BIG EP DEM NIK NOT JUST THE
WORLD, NOT THE U.S., THE AIDS EPIDEMIC WHICH WAS IN MANY WAYS
MUCH WORSE THAN WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW, NOW IF YOU GET
CORONAVIRUS YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD CHANCE OF LIVING.
IN THE EARLY 1980S, IF YOU GOT AIDS YOU DIED.
WITH IT WAS A DEATH SENTENCE.
AND COMPARED TO WHAT GOVERNMENTS ARE DOING NOW IN THE EARLY
1980, BEAM WERE ABANDONED, IN MANY CASES, AND ESPECIALLY
POLITICIANS SAYING THIS IS PUNISHMENT FROM GOD TO GAY
PEOPLE.
IT WILL BE GOOD TO GET RID OF THEM. AND ACTUALLY, THE LGBT
COMMUNITY CAME OUT OF THE AIDS ETCH DEMIC MUCH STRONGER THAN IT
ENTERED IT.
PEOPLE DISCOVERED A LOT OF THINGS IN THEMSELVES.
THEY ESTABLISHED VOLUME TEAR ORGANIZATIONS TO HELP THE PEOPLE
TO SPREAD INFORMATION, TO FIGHT FOR POLITICAL RECOGNITION AND
ACTION.
AND AGAIN AIDS DID THE SAME SO COVID-19 TELEPHONE,.
>> James: EVEN JUST HEARING YOU SAY THAT MADE ME FEEL SO
MUCH BETTER.
BECAUSE THAT HAS BEEN THE THING THAT IS FREAKING ME OUT, THE
NOTION OF WHAT WILL IT BE LIKE AFTER.
THIS BUT YOU DO THINK THAT THERE IS SOME HOPE TO BE FOUND THE
OTHER SIDE OF THIS.
>> YEAH, IT IS GOING TO BE LONG AND DIFFICULT FOR SOME PEOPLE,
MORE THAN FOR OTHERS.
BUT YOU KNOW, HUMANKIND, WE HAVE EVERYTHING, FOR THE FIRST TIME
IN HISTORY, ACTUALLY.
WE HAVE EVERYTHING WE NEED TO OVERCOME THIS EP DIM-- EPIDEMIC.
ABOVE ALL A GOOD SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT CAUSELESS
THE DISEASE AND HOW TO PREVENT IT FROM SPREADING.
DURING THE BLACK DEATH, MAYBE THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WAS
IGNORANCE.
PEOPLE WERE DYING IN THE MILLIONS, ALL AROUND, AND NOBODY
HAD ANY IDEA WHY PEOPLE WERE DYING AND WHAT COULD BE DONE
ABOUT IT.
THE MEDICAL FACULTY IN PARIS AND THE UNIVERSITY OF PARIS, THEIR
BEST ESTIMATE WAS THAT THIS IS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE
ASTROLOGICAL POSITION OF THE SUN.
IT WAS THEIR BEST GUEST.
>> James: WOW.
>> MANY OTHER PEOPLE SAID THAT IT WAS PUNISHMENT FROM GOD, SO
WE JUST NEED TOO GO O TO CHURCH AND PRAY DISPOR GOD'S
FORIVENESS-- FORGIVENESS.
>> NOT THAT IT IS A TINY PATH O AGAIN COMING FROM FLEAS ON RATS.
EVEN A HUNDRED YEARS AGO DURING THE BIG 1918 INFLUENZA, DEURGT
EPIDEMIC ITSELF, THE BEST SCIENTISTS WERE WORKING ON IT,
AND NOBODY DISCOVERED WHAT WAS THE ACTUAL VIOLENCE CAUSING THE
EPIDEMIC.
NOW IT TOOK US TWO WEEKS TO IDENTIFY THE CORRECT VIRUS, AND
DEVELOP RELIABLE TESTS.
SO WE ARE REALLY IN A BETTER POSITION THAN ANY TIME BEFORE.
WE HAVE THE SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE.
WHAT WE DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE IS THE POLITICAL WISDOM TO MAKE
USE OF OUR IMMENSE POWER.
MAYBE THE BIGGEST PROBLEM OF ALL IS THE LACK OF INTERNATIONAL
COOPERATION AND OF GLOBAL SOLIDARITY.
I AM NOT SO AFRAID OF THE VIRUS.
I AM MUCH MORE AFRAID OF THE INNER FRP HUMANITY COMING OUT,
PEOPLE REACTING TO THIS CRISIS, NOT WITH SOLIDARITYBUT WITH
HATRED OR WITH GRIEF.
THAT IS THE BIGGEST THING.
>> TELEPHONE DURING EBOLA, FOR EXAMPLE, DID THE G7 LEADERS CAME
TOGETHER AND IT WAS PRESIDENT OBAMA WHO WAS REALLY LEADING
THOSE DISCUSSIONS.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW DOESN'T SEEM
TOO INTERESTED IN DOING SUCH A THING.
WHO ARE THE OTHER WORLD LEADERS WE COULD LOOK TO FOR GUIDANCE
DURING THIS, AND DO YOU THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WILL
HAPPEN?
>> WELL, TELEPHONE NOBODY IS TAKING THE GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY
AND THEREFORE WE DON'T HAVE A GLOBAL PLAN OF ACTION, NOT IN
THE FIELD OF HEALTH CARE AND CERTAINLY NOT IN THE ECONOMIC
FIELD.
MANY COUNTRIES ARE LOOKING JUST ABOUT THEIR OWN INTEREST AND
COMPETING WITH THE OTHER COUNTRIES FOR MEDICAL EQUIPMENT.
TRADITIONALLY THE U.S. WAS THE RESPONSIBLE ADULT, IN A CASE
LIKE THE EBOLA EPIDEMIC OR THE 2008 FINANCIAL CRISIS, YOU STEP
FORWARD TO BE THE LEADER OF HUMANITY AND IN BOTH CASES
MANAGED TO GATHER ENOUGH COUNTRIES AROUND IT TO PREVENT
THE WORST OUTCOME.
NOW THE U.S. IS BASICALLY UNDERTAKEN THIS ROLE AS GLOBAL
LEADER.
BAIFERL SAID I DON'T WANT THIS JOB.
I CARE ONLY ABOUT MYSELF.
AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ACTUAL RESPONSE OF THE U.S. IN ITS OWN
HOUSE TO THE EPIDEMIC, MAYBE ST NOT A BAD THING THAT IT IS NOT
RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WORLD.
BECAUSE IT IS DOING WORSE THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER COUNTRY.
NOT JUST COMPARED TO CHINA, BUT COMPARE IT TO SOUTH KOREA, TO
NEW ZEALAND, EVEN TO GREECE, GREECE ST DOING AN AMAZING JOB
IN CONTAINING THIS EPIDEMIC.
IF I HAD THO CHOOSE SAY BETWEEN GREECE AND THE UNITED STAITLE,
WHO SHOULD BE LEADING THE WORLD NOW GIVING US A PLAN OF ACTION.
I WOULD DEFINITELY CHOOSE GREECE.
>> James: WOW, THAT IS QUITE DE PRESSING.
NOW YOU WROTE A PIECE IN "THE FINANCIAL TIMES" WHERE YOU TALK
ABOUT SMARTPHONES AND GOVERNMENT USING THAT TECHNOLOGY AND A
GREATER THREAT OF SURVEILLANCE.
CAN YOU TALK TO ME ABOUT THIS AND DO YOU THINK ULTIMATELY THIS
IS A GOOD OR A BAD THING FOR CIVILIZATION?
>> IT COULD BE GOOD BUT YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT IT.
WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW STRKS REALLY A WATERSHED IN THE
HISTORY OF SURVEILLANCE.
FIRST OF ALL WE SEE MASS SURVEILLANCE ENTERING AND BEING
ADOPTED IN DEM GRAT-- DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES WHICH PREVIOUSLY
RESISTED THEM.
SECONDLY WE SEE THE NATURE OF SURVEILLANCE CHANGING FROM OVER
THE SKIN SURVEILLANCE TO UNDER THE SKIN SURVEILLANCE.
OVER THE SKIN SURVEILLANCE IS SAY THE GOVERNMENT OR
CORPORATION WATCHING, MONITORING WHERE YOU GO, WHAT YOU BUY, WHAT
YOU WATCH ON TELEVISION.
UNDER THE SKIN SURVEILLANCE STARTS WITH MONITORING YOUR
BLOOD PRESSURE, BUT ULTIMATELY IT IS ABOUT WERE TAGGING YOUR
BODY AND BRAIN AND KNOWING WHAT YOU ARE FEELING EACH AND EVERY
MOAVMENT, NOT JUST PAIN OR COUGHING, BUT OUR EMOTIONS.
OUR BIOLOGICAL PA EXACTLY LIKE THE FLU OR LIKE HEAT, LIKE
TEMPERATURE.
SO IF YOU WILL A SURVEILLANCE SYSTEM THAT CAN TELL YOU
SOMEBODY, THAT CAN ALSO TELL THEM HOWL THEY FEEL EACH AND
EVERY MOMENT.
AND YOU KNOW, TEN YEARS IN THE FUTURE, FAST FORWARD, NORTH
KOREA, EVERY CITIZEN HAS TO WEAR A BIOMETRIC BRACELET ON THEIR
ARM AND YOU HAVE TO WATCH THIS BIG SPEECH BY BIG LEADERS.
AND WHEN YOU WATCH THE SPEECH, THEY ARE WATCHING WHAT IS
HAPPENING IN YOUR BODY.
YOU CAN SMILE AND QUU CLAP YOUR HANDS BUT IF YOU ARE ANGRY, THEY
KNOW.
YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT ACTUALLY IS HAPPENING IN YOUR
BODY.
SO THIS IS NO LONGER SCIENCE FICTION, THIS IS ALREADY WITHIN
REACH OF PRESENT DAY TECHNOLOGY AND THE CORONAVIRUS EPIDEMIC CAN
BE THE WATERSHED EVENT WHEN GOVERNMENT GOING UNDER OUR SKIN
BECOMES WERE ACCESSIBLE.
>> James, I COULD TALK TO YOU ALL DAY.