My guest tonight is producer and activist Monica Lewinsky.
She's here to talk about her brand new documentary
that unpacks our culture of public shaming.
- I can see the physical toll,
my weight fluctuating.
Probably like 105 pounds in that picture.
The next few months was me going to counseling,
me trying to figure out
how to walk on American University's campus
while constantly being triggered
every single day that I'm there.
- Monica Lewinsky.
Welcome to "The Daily Show."
- Thank you, Trevor. Nice to be here.
- It's a pleasure to have you here.
Before we get into the interview, I did wonder this,
does everybody call you "Monica Lewinsky" always?
(Monica laughing)
- No.
Well, I guess in a professional setting,
in an interview, maybe.
People either do that or I've also felt people
very familiarly will call me "Monica."
- Oh, okay. Got it.
- But I'm so, in that sense
of being very familiar to people for a long time,
but I also get, I think the familiar thing,
people stop me and ask me for directions a lot.
So I think it's that thing- - Wait, like in the street?
- Yeah. Just random...
And I think it happens to me so often
that it must be because there's something in their brain
that is, "Oh, this person is familiar to me,"
(Trevor laughing) and they translate that
as, "They must be nice."
(Trevor laughing)
- Are you good at giving directions?
- I think I'm good
at giving directions. - I would hope
you've gotten good.
Because people always ask me for directions,
I would just get really good
or I would get really good
at seeming like I'm good at giving directions,
just so that people leave me with a sense of confidence
and then if they get lost, that's not my problem.
- Sort of that cruise director vibe.
- Yes, that's exactly what it is.
Let's talk about the reason you're on the show today.
October is "Bullying Prevention Month"
and one of the biggest places
that bullying has moved to is online.
Just yesterday on the show,
I was talking to Tristan Harris, who I think you know-
- Yes. - and he was here talking
about like just what social media giants
have been doing to inflame our ability to bully each other,
to hate each other, to become polarized.
You're looking at the subject
from a completely different perspective
and yet the two overlap.
- Very much so.
- The first question I have for you is
online bullying or bullying as a whole,
how do you even begin to tackle that?
Is that even a tackleable thing?
- Well, I hope it is.
I mean, I think that with any social problem,
I think we can't give up on the idea
that we can have social change
and that people can change their behavior,
whether it comes from understanding,
whether it comes from empathy for other people,
or changing the structure, let's just say social media,
law, all sorts of things.
So I think we can make a dent.
And as you were saying, Tristan, who's in our film-
- Right. - Yeah,
who's actually in the film.
But I think where there is a lot of overlap
is that you're seeing,
and with Francis Haugen,
the whistleblower from Facebook,
I think that she's talking
about what's happening online already,
but you can see the consequences of that,
the real human consequences, in our film.
So that's where there really this overlap too
of what we're talking about with the social media companies
and the landscape and the human consequences.
- You've been a part of telling the story,
"15 Minutes of Shame," a new documentary film
that's gonna be premiering on HBO Max tomorrow
and it delves into a subject that you yourself call...
You refer to yourself as "patient zero."
You say I am the patient zero of this whole thing
and really you were because your story blew up
right when the internet was really becoming a thing,
information was flying across the globe.
So my first question to you
is as a human in this,
why would you want to go back into that?
Why would you want to delve back into a story
that I can only assume was one of the worst periods
of your life?
- I think had my life unfolded differently
and had there been a different path
that allowed me to get back
on a more normal developmental path
or to get a job and move forward in life,
I'm not a hundred percent sure
I'd be an anti-bullying advocate at the moment,
but really, what happened for me was, after graduate school,
I realized that I couldn't run away from what happened,
I had to integrate it
and I had to do a lot of work around that
and in the process of that, in that time span,
it just became clear that what happened to me,
and I made a mistake,
but what happened to me was now happening
to many other people, especially young people.
I don't want to kick into my "Ted Talk," so,
(laughs) which happens sometimes
when I talk about this area, but...
I think for me, it's not easy.
This isn't easy for me to do,
but it's important, I think it's important work
and when I hear from people that it's been meaningful,
whether it's a teacher
who's helped a student or something else,
I think that's me and everybody who's working in this space,
it of course is worthwhile.
- Well, you know what's really interesting
about this subject for me is
the concept of being shamed online
is one that I feel is constantly gonna evolve,
in that, what I love about this film
that you've helped create
is you take us through the story and the journey of shaming.
You take us to a time before internet,
before newspapers, even.
It's like here we are,
we're gonna tar and feather people,
we're gonna stone people in a public square.
There's always this idea of shaming the person
with that punishment.
But as the internet has grown,
the thing I've often said to people is
there was a world where it would be celebrities
or people who are in some status position
who will be shamed,
but because of social media,
it is only inevitable
that everybody will achieve some level of celebrity
that will then enable them to be shamed on the same level
and I feel like that's what you've started talking about
in these stories is it's gone
from being presidents and actors,
to now just being a high school girl,
to now just being a man who works in a factory,
to now just being somebody who took a picture
with their family and the picture was taken the wrong way.
That seems like a change in how society
is looking at who to bully and who to shame.
- Absolutely. You're a hundred percent right.
I think that one of the factors,
and we do take people through this in the film,
is around the idea of how shame had been used
since the beginning of time as a social tool
and when the printing press was invented,
it all of a sudden leapfrogged into being something
that could now be commoditized.
And then once the tabloid culture
bled into every area of our culture,
leading up to Princess Diana's death,
which was a function of paparazzi live in that world,
the tabloid world, right?
That's where their income comes from.
And so there was that moment
and that was only five months before 1998.
So we didn't make a cultural shift
and the internet being there when '98 happened,
it then grew from there,
but I think what we're seeing now too,
is that this is very much about power, right?
It's about like,
are there people in power who should face consequences?
Absolutely.
But are there people who are not in positions of power
who are facing the same consequence
and it's ruining their lives
in a way that is very different?
Yes to that too.
And I'm not sure, I think...
So it's not only people in power,
but it's also the power too,
that we have as citizens,
as people, right?
- To turn into a mob, really. - With the power
of the internet.
You know, I think...
I don't know how you feel about cancel culture
and kind of the term "cancel culture,"
but I think it's, for me,
it's just become a little too broad.
- Yeah.
I think when I look at it, is I go,
I think everyone's says "cancel culture"
and it seems like it embodies everything.
And I go, "Well, sometimes it's consequences,
sometimes it's criticism,"
and I think it has become a broad term
that doesn't enable us to have better conversations
about which aspects of it-
- I agree, 100%. - we want to monitor.
That's what I loved in the film.
You specifically don't just go,
"Guys, let's not use the internet
and let's not poke at people."
You talk about all the upsides.
- I think there really is a kind of a beauty and a beast
to the internet.
And we see it with...
Look at the social change that is happening,
we call it shaming for change,
but around hashtags with "me too", or "black lives matter."
That kind of power that can come from the social tool,
shame is a social tool, is invaluable.
And that's giving a power to people who haven't had a voice
for a long time to hold others accountable.
But then you do have instances,
we have all shades of gray in the film
including the clip that you showed
is somebody who never made a mistake.
In fact, the opposite.
She did everything that you are supposed to do
and then some
and face this just horrific,
horrific white supremacist mob online.
- Have you glimpsed even an idea of what we could do
about this, because it feels like,
as the documentary shows,
it feels like this is an unfortunate byproduct
of being a human being,
it's always existed- - There are lots of those,
right? - Yeah.
(Monica laughs)
And the internet has amplified that.
And so when you look at these things,
is there even like a glimmer of hope
where you go like, "Oh, this is something that we could do?"
- I mean, I don't know, maybe call me "Pollyanna."
I do believe there's a glimmer of hope.
I have a belief in the good of people,
that people can be good.
Obviously there're a (bleep) ton of shit heads...
Am I allowed to swear?
- Oh, yeah, you can say that. - Okay,
there're a (bleep) ton of shit heads
(Monica laughs)
in the world,
but I think where we're going and where we're moving to
and what is possible is,
and we try to do this in the doc,
the doc is supposed to be a conversation starter
around these topics, that there is,
there're the social media companies who...
If you think about an architect and an engineer, right?
Their job is to make sure, no matter what,
no matter how beautiful the building is, or functional,
if people are not safe in that building, it's useless.
And so they have to work better and harder and faster
at making sure people are safe,
but there's also the human behavior component of it.
There's the chemical, the dopamine
and you think about...
So I think those are two places where we need to see change.
I think we need to see a shifting in Section 230
about what the social media companies are...
To be classified as a startup,
when you're owned by some of the wealthiest men
in the world, I think that we need to find a change.
- You know, one thing the documentary made me realize,
and I know that I've been guilty of this as well.
I've been on both sides of it.
I've been publicly shamed.
I've had my canceling moments and all of that,
but I know that I've also been part of mobs.
And what's interesting is when you're in the mob, though,
there's a disconnect between you and the human
and so you don't even realize
the size of the pebble that you're throwing
because it gets combined with everyone else.
I remember back in the day, it's like, "Oh, Tiger Woods,"
and then I was like, "I've got a joke about Tiger Woods,
I'll tweet this because it's funny, it's just me,
it's by myself."
And then it gets amplified, as you say,
and you don't realize that you have become part of a thing,
where if you stepped back, if you saw somebody's life,
and if you saw the mob you were part of,
you may be able to go,
"Whoa, whoa, whoa.
I wasn't trying to do that to somebody.
I thought it was harmless.
I thought it was meaningless,"
but it went to one human being.
As somebody who's experienced it,
is that why it was important for you
to show the people behind the stories
to understand the story holistically?
- Absolutely.
I think not only...
I think that really what felt important
was for people to come to understand
what happens in these shamings
and what does it feel like to be on the receiving end
of that tidal wave of negativity and it's not even...
It's exacerbated from being just shame,
but also can be violence.
So, I mean, and that violence doesn't just live,
particularly for women,
it doesn't always just live online.
So I think, too, that there was...
We don't get to know these people,
of who they were the moment before,
whatever it is happened happened, right?
And so I think in, in the same way, and I understand that,
I didn't have much of a history
to what happened to me in '98.
This was my first job out of college,
so there wasn't much there, but that sense of...
And that is
one of the really emotionally-devastating experiences
around having a shaming like that,
is that feeling, the irony of being so seen
and not being seen at all for who you truly are.
- Yeah. I know exactly what you're talking about.
- I think that there's, and we haven't-
- You spend all your time trying to claw back the "you"
that people don't see,
because they've defined you now,
everyone goes, "This is who you are."
And you're like, "No, no, no.
I grew up like this and I have parents and I have family
and I friends and I make good decisions."
- Yes and in that way, your narrative runs away from you,
your identity is stolen,
and I think you're so right about the mob mentality.
One of the things, I don't know,
maybe it's written somewhere,
but I'm sort of fascinated by this idea of
did people, in stoning times,
did people pick up more than one stone?
Or was it they threw one stone
and they had the moment of seeing the person's reaction,
an energetic feeling of someone,
what it felt like to be hit by that stone, I don't know,
but today with the,
they call it the online disinhibition effect,
so this sense of what happens online
is that because you're dealing with a screen
and not another person,
you take on a different identity
that a lot of these behaviors
and the ways that we see empathy
and feel empathy are just,
you're unable to see that,
you're unable to feel it online
and that's how people become objectified.
- You know what it feels like to me sometimes
is I play video games.
When I play video games,
there are things that I'll do in a video game
I'd never do in real life,
but it's in the video game
and it happens to the other video game characters.
So if I'm playing "Grand Theft Auto,"
I'm like, yeah, "I'm gonna run someone over,"
and I think it's funny,
what's happened with social media
is that has also become a video game of people's emotions,
but there is someone on the other side.
- Yeah and I think sometimes the problem with those things
is you become anesthetized to that whole idea
that there is a person and it becomes...
Like if you think about, you might be too young,
but "Second Life" that was sort of-
- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Okay, okay.
(both laughing)
- I'm not that young, but thank you.
- You know, "Second Life" is sort of this fascinating,
very, to me, a very rich place
of understanding human behavior online,
of that first place, where it was,
oh, in the same way, Photoshop,
like Photoshop gives you this ability
to say whoever I am right now,
how I look, is not good enough.
- Right, this is who I wish to be.
- Exactly.
And so I think that the minute we start divorcing ourselves
from that self reality, it not only affects us emotionally,
but it also impacts how we treat and see others as well.
- The journey you've been on,
and I know we've got to wrap this up,
everyone should just watch the documentary.
No, because I think it's-
- We all worked really hard on it, so thank you.
- You know what I think it is,
I think if we're not careful as people,
we stop seeing each other as people,
and then we live in a world
where we take on these avatars as humans,
we go off to the other humans,
we don't realize it's happening,
then we're all walking around with traumas and PTSDs
and anxieties, but that's not who we actually are.
It's like a fake polarization that then happens.
Before I let you go,
I'd love to know,
as somebody who experienced, arguably,
the greatest level of public shaming
that human beings have seen,
I mean, across continents, your name was uttered,
I'd love to know how you figured out a way to go,
"You know what?
Yeah, I am Monica Lewinsky.
Yeah, everyone has made these shitty jokes about me.
Yes, the whole country, at some point was, was saying this.
But you know what?
I'm now gonna take control of my...
I'm gonna reclaim my narrative."
How did you do that?
- It was definitely not a straight line to that
and it was not a linear process at all.
So I think that it happened for me,
it happened in stages
because also
my ability to even see and understand
what had happened to me
and the consequences of some of those things,
didn't become apparent for years, for a decade.
It wasn't until I got out of graduate school,
I had a master's in social psychology
from London School of Economics
and I couldn't get hired. - Wow.
- So then I started to realize,
"Oh, this is a lot more damage
to me- - Wow.
- to what had happened,
than I had realized at that point."
And I didn't set out to reclaim my narrative.
I set out to heal and healing for me was,
I mean, I would try anything.
I did a lot of consciousness and energy work,
but I've also had a lot of therapy,
so I think it was this process
and as I changed, the world was also changing,
but it eventually became...
It was around seeing what was now happening,
this new landscape online,
to other people that made me realize,
well, there may be some validity
or some help...
If I'm the poster child for having been publicly shamed
and my life may not be great right now,
but I'm still here,
that might help someone.
And so that sort of began the process
and it was actually the younger generations...
Graydon Carter gave me a chance
to write a first-person essay for "Vanity Fair" in 2014
and what that meant was I wasn't gonna be defined
through a journalist's eyes.
I was going to define myself.
I was gonna say what I wanted
and it was the younger generations
who insisted that the older generations,
who had really been around at the time,
said, "Whoa, whoa.
Let's stop and have a rethink about this situation."
Not to say I shouldn't have had some blame,
I certainly try to take responsibility for those things.
But the idea that I bore more responsibility and more...
The consequences were way worse for me
than they were for the most powerful man in the world
and some of the other people in the scandal,
all 20 years older than me, is insane.
And I hope from all the projects I do,
with this documentary,
with "American Crime Story Impeachment," anything else,
that it just kind of chips away
at what it is that happened to me,
so that can't happen to someone else.
- I feel you there. I appreciate you, I really do.
Thank you- - Thank you.
- for taking the time. - Thanks, Trevor.
- Thank you for making us ask a few questions
about ourselves, because I think the mistake we make
sometimes in society is we like to make it seem
like other people are always shitty.
When I think we all have a little shittiness inside of us
and we don't even realize what that shittiness is
or how it contributes to just like becoming a giant rock
that we're throwing at other people,
so thank you for telling this story,
thank you for healing,
and thank you for joining me on the show.
- Thank you.
- It's been wonderful having you.
- Yeah, thank you.
- "15 Minutes of Shame" will be available
to stream on HBO Max October 7th.
We're gonna take a quick break,
but we'll be right back after this.