- Well, hey, you guys,
I am so excited about today's episode
because my guest today
is one of the people I love to talk to,
I love to read,
I love to listen to,
Marcus Buckingham is here.
He is a researcher and New York Times bestselling author
and founder of strengths revolution.
So, Marcus, thanks for being here.
- It's my pleasure.
- Well, we chatted a little bit on the phone,
I guess almost a year ago for my new book,
"Know Yourself, Know Your Money,"
and I kind of picked your brain
around psychology and the way we view money,
everything from our childhood to our fears,
to our dreams, all of it.
So I'm just kind of curious from you on a high level,
when you're in the world of psychology
and when you're thinking of the way people function,
and the way they act,
how has money played a role in people's lives
in a positive way in our world today, in our culture?
- Well, obviously it's a way to enable our dreams, isn't it?
We all want to project into the future.
That's part of the human condition.
It's probably what makes us different from the animals
is that we can project into the future
and find meaning in that future.
And we feel unquestionably better, healthier,
more positive well-being
when we feel like we have some ability
to control that future
and actually create out of that future
the dreams and the hopes and so forth that we want.
Money's a part of that.
We have to be able to understand though
what role it plays as a means to an end,
rather than an end in itself,
as you well know.
Having piles and piles,
growing piles money in some sort of stockpile
isn't really gonna give your life
any more meaning or purpose at all.
We know the meaning
comes from projections into a better future.
And when we can do that through relationships,
through our families,
through the dreams we have for them,
through our achievements
and the dreams we have
for those things that we want to achieve,
our lives have much more fullness to them.
And of course money is a means to that end.
When it steps over into something else,
then we're into a whole nother different ball of wax.
But if we can see as part of our arsenal,
part of our tool set, for creating a better future,
it's incredibly psychologically healthy.
- Yeah, I love that.
That's exactly what we talk about in this show all the time,
is that money's a tool
to help you create a life that you love.
So use it as that tool.
Don't use it as the God
that you're sitting there to worship,
and yeah, the means to the end,
because we do live in a culture,
and I even watch shows on Netflix or TV or something,
and I'll just see these people
and you can tell they are just chasing after success
and getting that next paycheck
and money, money, money, money,
and you see their lives develop.
And again, I'm thinking TV specifically,
but I know real life and walking with people,
and I'm like, man, it can negatively impact you
in so many ways
when that becomes the means to the end.
So what have you seen with people psychologically?
Like the loss of relationships,
maybe the loss of drive or dreams
when money negatively impacts them
because they are so obsessed
thinking that if they could just have X amount of money,
that they'll be okay?
- Well, it's funny.
There's an American musician called Grace Slick,
who is a musician,
but also said something incredibly smart
about wealth and money,
saying that no matter how comfortable your bed is,
sooner or later, you have to get out of it.
And so money enables you to have a comfy bed.
But if all you do is admire the bed,
you're gonna have an incredibly stationary life.
And life, for humans, a healthy life, is motion.
We are moving through life.
We are taking the things that we have, that we love,
and then we are expressing them through contribution.
And when you realize that it's an infinite loop
and that money can be a part
of the way in which you keep motion happening,
which implies risk,
which implies investments,
it implies taking your talents
and actually putting them into the world,
both meanings of the word talent in that sense.
If we don't, it's not neutral, Rachel.
Love unexpressed, contribution unexpressed,
will burn you up from the inside out
and you'll become frustrated,
you'll become impatient,
you'll become quick to anger.
You'll walk around,
we've all had that feeling,
you're sort of walking around
and you're like you're in a brain fog
and you can't quite remember where your creativity went,
where your quick wittedness went
and where it went
was your love, your contribution was unexpressed,
you're sitting there guarding in your wealth,
guarding your money,
you're not moving if you don't
put something in the world, get a reaction,
put another thing in the world, get a reaction.
That's what healthy life and living is.
- Yeah because it's almost like this
like beacon, a mechanism, a living mechanism, right?
You're moving versus just that hoarding mentality
that some people have.
Yeah, you don't just sit still.
It's like a treadmill.
You're gonna end up going backwards
if you're not moving forward.
That's such a good point.
Now, as I've been focusing on people
and why they handle money the way they do,
their childhood has a massive part of that.
So kind of talk to me about
not even just money specific, but just in general,
how you find people's childhood
and the way they were brought up, affects them today.
- We do place a lot of emphasis on biography.
And yet we also have, do you have brothers and sisters?
- Yes, older sister, younger brother.
- Okay, are you different from them?
- Yes.
(laughing)
- I have an older brother, a younger sister,
I'm in the middle too.
So we are both the perfect middle child.
- I was gonna say middle children are the best
so that's good.
Glad you are too.
- As certified by two middle children.
- Of course, of course. We're credible.
- It's one of those funny things though isn't it Rachel,
where you look at your brother and your sister and you go,
wow, I am really different from them,
in regards to my abilities, my talents, my passions,
but also in terms of my success,
the way in which I move through life.
And so to some extent, the way in which you are brought up
doesn't affect that
because both of your siblings
grew up in the same socioeconomic and genetic environment.
And yet clearly the way in which your parents
understand fear and risk,
I think it's those two things,
so yes, you're bringing in your own genetic inheritance,
but then you're looking,
you're looking at mom and dad and going,
what are you afraid of?
And by the way, fear's an interesting thing
because if you listen to your fears,
if you let them in,
don't fight them, don't banish them, let them in,
fear is a really good sign to what you love.
What you're frightened of,
and therefore you actually risk more
in those parts of your life
where you feel that twinge of fear.
Now you're not stupid about it,
but you use the psychology of your fear
to guide where actually most of your passions lie.
- That's so good. Well, I love the way you speak on that
because I was even talking to Dr. Chip Dodd
and he talked about how fear
just actually shows you what you need too,
that you're in need.
What is it that you need in that moment
to help you overcome that?
And so many people are so scared to even have that need,
so fear becomes negative and it's not.
So I love even that perspective you bring around
because I think it's so smart
because again, I feel like we grow up
and we hear these terms,
just don't be afraid, don't be afraid, don't be afraid,
I'm like, no fear's a part of life.
How you handle it and the outcome of that
is what's important and what's crucial.
And that's so, so good.
- It's part of what your book what can help with
because one of the ways in which fear manifests
is in the realm of money.
Fear is pain for the psyche.
So it helps you know what you need, what you love,
where you can risk, who is the true essence of you?
Like the fears of your brother and sister
are different than your fears.
And your fears will change
and morph through the course of your life,
with kids and so forth,
but your fears are yours.
And so if you change your relationship to those fears,
bring them in,
then you will change the relationship to money
because it won't be something that can harm you.
It's not a villain.
It's part of the team.
- Absolutely.
And almost money is like this magnifying glass
into other areas of your life.
So people that think that there's a fear of money
that may be true, but what is deeper than that, right?
Like it's not just the money fear,
it's fear of so much else, rejection,
whatever it is it's underneath that
and getting to that part
is so, so crucial to be able to unpack that.
And so fear for you,
I know we kind of had this discussion
when we were talking about a year ago,
but what talk about what fear even does
like biologically to us as humans,
to the brain, like all that.
I think it's just so fascinating
because when we let this overcome us,
specifically in the realm of money too,
it can be paralyzing.
And so that fear,
fear in so many different aspects of life,
obviously it pops up,
but talk about a little bit more like the psychology,
the biology of fear.
- Fear is designed to help us respond to threat, right?
So if we start to feel frightened,
there are certain physiological changes
that occur in our body.
Our whole body fills with cortisol,
our blood pressure rises,
our heart beats faster.
And what's happening to us
is we are getting primed for action.
And what fear does
in terms of the way that the brain functions
is it is a narrowing function,
push everything out and focus on do I run for my life
or do I stand and fight?
And so everything, it's a narrowing function.
What it does well at in terms of narrowing
is it will narrow you to what you love,
it will narrow your focus to what you care deeply about.
That's a useful thing to know
because the world that we live in is so busy.
Look at your life, right?
You've got work that you're doing,
you've got all sorts of relationships
that are outside of your house that are really important,
you've got three kids that will take,
your life is a transactional life,
just stuff hits you all the time.
So in the context of that what use is fear?
Well, actually fear can help you
stop the wind whipping by your ears all the time
and go, wait a minute,
what is super important to me?
One good place to look
would be the things I'm frightened of.
Okay, let's look there.
And so you're in a sense
you're using the narrowing power of fear to reveal a you
and that's good.
- So good.
And to prioritize your life, right?
So you don't look back in 20 years and be like, oh my gosh.
So yeah, using that fear
as a tool to prioritize what's important.
That's good, that's so, so good.
Well, Marcus, thank you so much for coming on
and just chatting about all of this.
I think it's fascinating. I love what you have to say.
I love the work that you do.
So where can people find you?
- Well, marcusbuckingham.com is a pretty good place,
marcusbuckingham.com, and then I'm on Instagram.
I like Instagram better than anything else.
It's just faster and easier.
- So good, so great.
Well, Marcus, thanks again. I so appreciate your time.
- My pleasure.
- Thanks.