hello and welcome to this special
edition of under the skin with me
Russell Brand I'll be talking to doctor
professor dr. Jordan Peterson I've
spoken to him before but this special
commemorative wasn't really a
commemorative chat it's not a t-tail for
the royal wedding between Megan Merkel
and Prince Harry it's to celebrate their
release on paper back of my book
recovery look at it now on Amazon it's
six pound fifty I think maybe six pound
47 we talk about that book recovery we
talk about the principles of recovery as
a road to enlightenment we talk about
dr. Peterson's book twelve rules for
life
it's an interesting chat talking about
myth we do of course go through some of
the mainstays of Professor Peterson's
whatever canon of ideas that he commonly
talked about but also I think we really
get to the heart of it and discover some
some people think there's an exclusion
of warmth I think sometimes when talking
about Peterson's ideas and he's
insistent on individual culpability and
responsibility we get into that stuff
quite deeply I think it's a great chat
those you don't know who Jordan Peterson
is yet we're where have you been
obviously not watching him at the
Hammersmith Apollo with 5,000 others so
yeah we're talking to Jordan Peterson
and under the skin thanks for joining me
and do check out my book recovery on
path of it thank you dr. Jordan Peterson
thank you for coming on under the skin
it's lovely to see you again it's good
to see you too it's nice to meet in
London yeah it's different isn't it we
both of us were exiled in Los Angeles in
our last conversation but I enjoyed it
very much I've got a lot from it I'm
happy to talk to you one this is very
much home turf for me now mm-hmm
we're in London we're in a publishing
office you have been promoting your book
I presume that's why you're here
yes and doing a public couple of public
lectures how do you find that now how do
you finding what in a way I've been
comparing you to the British opposition
leader Jeremy Corbyn in that you've been
doing this for ages and now you're
experiencing a almost perhaps
unprecedented level of
attention but I'm assuming that your
skillset is applicable you're a lecturer
you're a clinical cyclist so it's not
like oh my god there's cameras right
right well and I mean the the
large-scale lectures I'm doing aren't
that much different in kind from the
lectures I was doing at the University I
mean the venues are larger and yeah but
the Hammersmith Apollo 3,000 seats I
think maybe yeah there were 5000 at the
Apollo
well that's we don't nervous I'm not as
nervous doing that as I am often going
to talk to journalists individual
journalists yeah because like the thing
about those venues there's a variety of
things about them that work in my favor
I mean I like talking to crowds you know
I've always enjoyed lecturing and so
lecturing to several thousand people
isn't much different than lecturing to
several hundred people but I also know
that the people who've come are they're
happy to be there like I'm speaking to a
welcoming crowd and so and it's all all
of the details are essentially under my
control so so it's not it's I'm actually
enjoying it quite a bit
I mean I'm apprehensive beforehand
because well because you should be you
know I want to do a good job and I want
to make sure things go well and I want
to get through the material properly and
and and get a little farther in my
thinking than I have been and and I'm
trying to make each time I lecture
better than the last time and I don't
obviously I'd always don't succeed at
that but but it's good I'm enjoying it
and my wife is a very good travel
companion she's very stable and she
helps me plan my days and so we've got
it down to a bit of a routine I would
say Tammy is in the room with us we have
already met previously in Los Angeles
you won't be on mic there isn't my book
it's just in case listeners are
wondering why perhaps they might be able
to detect in my voice I'm occasionally
glancing towards a spouse the reason is
because I am I'm good when you're doing
these lectures you know is there not a
performance component do you not feel
like f initely
yeah well sure I mean a lecture theatre
is a theatre you know and lecture is a
form of theatre now it's a series
form of theater but theater can be
serious you know and and there's a see
because partly what I'm doing is I'm
presenting ideas to an audience but I'm
also modeling the act of engaging with
ideas and that's the theatrical end of
it and I don't give the same talk twice
like I have my stories and I have my
collection of things I know and I talk
about but I try to I try to do two
things I try to in I'm always talking to
specific individuals in the audience and
so I'm having a conversation with the
audience and so that's that's part of
the dynamic element of the performance
and the other thing I'm trying to do is
to further my thinking on the topics
that I'm addressing and there is a
theatrical element to that because it's
it's like I think this the closest thing
really that it compares to is probably
stand-up comedy although I think the
routines that comedians have are
probably more well and formally
practiced than the ones that that you
know then then the then that talks that
I that I engage in I don't really think
of it as delivering a lecture to an
audience I'm trying to think about
complicated things in real time with an
audience there to participate and and to
use the audience as an indicator of
whether what I'm saying is gripping and
comprehensible your apprehension and
understandable adrenaline prior to going
onstage doesn't lead you to lean into
schtick you know which would be the
opposite of what you're describing
wanting to remain engaged in the kind of
dialectic process of discovery because I
thought I mean obviously I am a comedian
so yeah but for us I would argue there
is a there is a distinction between
performing for 200 people or 5000 people
around 200 I feel like I'm very relaxed
I'm comfortable I feel like I've got a
lot of space in there five thousand I
feel like sharpen up now you've got no
room particularly because the other
crucial difference is there needs to be
a laugh every twenty thirty seconds if
there isn't it gets pretty frosty up
there it's appealing to me as a comedian
that's interesting interested in
furthering intellectual debate look
the new intersections between politics
and spirituality perhaps they've always
been there these some of these
evaporating context the emergence of new
ideas perhaps best exemplified by your
own particular trajectory is interesting
to me that these spaces are now becoming
available for forms of types of
performance that aren't so contingent it
is on rapture and right I know it is a
very strange thing and I'm not sure what
to make of it you know you see sam
harris doing something quite similar
richard dawkins is doing something quite
similar and and it's I mean I was
thinking because I've been trying to
conceptualize this and and one one
comparable audience or one comparable
situation is probably that of stand-up
comedians another I suspect our
traveling evangelist yeah you know
because there but but of course what
they're doing is explicitly religious
this is this has elements of both of
those and what's emerging that's so
interesting is that there's a clear
public appetite for high level
intellectual conversation if it's if
it's dynamic and I don't know what
what's accounting for that all of a
sudden maybe it's because these sorts of
discussions aren't taking place like
they should in the classical media space
you might be right there I mean to
slightly mango to slightly mangle the
young quote that you use in your book
twelve rules I'm really enjoying
actually like the one could infer
motivation from results perhaps is that
the political discourse social discourse
has become superficial and detached from
meaning from purpose from experience
though there is an opening appetite for
substance but people starting to what
you know and as you said about theater
before you know the origins of theater
and the origins of religion is closely
connected and both of them still owe a
debt or at least functionally must
relate to meaning purpose giving us
stories that help
illuminate the pathway I think that I
think that's that's that's there's
something about that that's profoundly
correct I think that know that the New
York Times has recently written about
the rise of the so-called intellectual
dark web which is a term that Eric
Weinstein so brilliantly coined I would
say and and very thoughtfully I think
the the thing that unites the people who
are loosely grouped into that collection
is that they are having serious
conversations with an audience that they
respect and they're very diverse range
of people they don't certainly don't
like salmon sam harris and i disagree
about many things for example and but
sam respects his audiences and he's and
he's engaging them in extremely serious
discourse about very deep topics and
about the structure of reality actually
and and the relationship between science
and religion and and and the and i think
it is a consequence of the fact that not
only has our public discourse let's say
in the media and in politics become
shallow i think it's become unbearably
shallow in the universities so yeah well
because it's become so ideological you
know and it's just not helpful look I
was interviewed by a New York Times
journalist last week Nellie was her name
and she's going to publish this on
Sunday and she did a literature degree
at Columbia and she told me that she was
quite appalled actually by her degree
especially in in hindsight she told me
that she didn't know until she graduated
that there was any other way of reading
great literature than through a
postmodern lens and the postmodern lens
takes a book and basically you take a
book whatever it happens to be and you
decide which power hierarchy the author
was serving and who's he who he's excel
sheet has excluded from consideration so
it's completely read through a political
lens as if the book is nothing but a
tool of political and economic
domination essentially and that's the
assumption and like look everything's
contaminated by politics and power to
some degree right but that doesn't mean
that there's nothing to art and
literature except in service of like
group domination
it's an appalling way of looking at the
world it would be an extraordinary bias
to bring to Jane Eyre it's very
difficult to sort of make sense of it
through that lens of course you know
economics and politics yeah of course
important themes are going to be present
in great works of art but I I'm
interested there's still great works of
art yeah it's the thing and it's like
well even even with something as
transient as comedy let's say I mean you
can't reduce comedy to the political or
the economic and comics who become too
ideological let's say like musicians who
become a dealer to ideological they're
just not funny anymore yeah you have to
be I mean you can have your viewpoint
left or right that's fine and people do
but you have to be able to transcend
that viewpoint continually and you have
to be able to criticize it right because
otherwise you're not a music you just
become a demagogue of sorts yes I would
agree that once there's a rubric to
which you become enslaved that becomes a
dogmatic then then there's no room for
nuance there's no room for hypocrisy
humor but transcendent mirth chaos these
forces need to be unleashed there's also
things you can no longer laugh about
because you're you know you're so
committed to your axioms you can't you
you dare not transgress against them and
if that's deadly if you're a comedian
because the rule for comedy would be and
this is something I like about about
Sarah Silverman for example is she will
say anything if she thinks it's funny
she's very daring in that manner and
like I've heard her tell jokes that
really would curl your hair you know but
you can tell by watching or something
will pop into her head in part of her
ghost case I don't know if I should say
this and then she'll say it and it's
often like horribly funny and horribly
funny is a good kind of funny I mean
it's it's it's daring and and it's
something I really admire about
comedians too is that they'll they'll
take that risk and and it's something
also that I've found disturbing about
with regards to the many things I find
disturbing about university campuses is
that so many comedians won't go perform
on university campuses anymore because
they can't be funny people get offended
and
it's so false offend offended I think
you're right I mean I think it's like a
kind of Simon Says type of like do you
know that games you have that game in
your language just like are there's
certain things that we know we're not
allowed to say there's certain things
that we know is supposed to think
there's a kind of a a kind of formulaic
dance a courtly behavior I've heard it
referred to as that we are meant to pay
homage to a particular type a set of
protocols and manners and it's not
necessarily anchored to a real morality
it's not anchored to a sort of a sense
of spirit to a sense of larval kindness
is about like these are the rules that
we abide by I want to talk to you a bit
about the 12 steps and the model for
handling addiction that I've written
about myself in my book recovery because
I want to see what you think of it like
so like the 12 steps have anonymous
fellowships which I if I were to belong
to them I wouldn't be able to say I
belong to them without breaching their
code of anonymity but that what's
positive about this approach to
addiction is as we have discussed
off-mic that it creates community like
that other people that have got a
similar endeavor and in fact it was
young that identified this this solution
here and he said that like people that
have got chronic addiction issues will
struggle to change and they have a
spiritual realization of some kind and
the support for community one the
spiritual realization component that's
actually supported by the relevant
addiction literature one of the classic
cures for addiction is spiritual
transformation and the hardcore
scientists have have laid that out as as
a reality in the addiction literature I
agree because they use more secular
language around that a spiritual
transformation could just be a change of
perspective a renewal radical change of
perspective yeah and typically in my
experience that's from a self-centered
view a self obsessive view about getting
your own needs met a solipsistic
narcissistic perspective of low life is
this is just an adventure where I go
around trying to accumulate and accrue -
oh wow I'm here to be of service that's
of the transition brain microscopically
but in addition to
community like having connections
between one another
the 12 steps themselves I think are an
interesting model for transformation and
shouldn't be overlooked and in fact what
my book was about Canton could that
method be transposed to anybody who's
interested in change so I wanted to talk
to you about that to get your
perspective on room the first step is
acknowledging that you are powerless
over your addiction and your life has
become unmanageable just that mean this
is I don't obey in this way so okay so
there's two parts to that admission a1
is that you're in trouble yeah and I
guess there's three you're in trouble
and it's serious things could be better
and you don't have the wherewithal at
the moment to make them better so the
thing that's interesting about that is
there's a kind of radical humiliation
and humility that goes along with that
so you say I have a problem yeah and
what I know at the moment isn't
sufficient to solve it great because now
you've opened yourself up to the
possibility of learning something yes
you say well I don't know I don't know
enough to fix this it's like okay well
you could learn and one of the things
that's so interesting about people is
that if they decide they have a problem
and they also noticed that they could
learn the probability that they will
learn goes way up that's very
interesting you've actually conflated
the first three steps there in your
analysis of the first one because the
first one is admission that there's a
problem the second one is recognizing
that things could improve accounts
believe that power great in ourselves
could restore us to sanity and the third
one is made a decision to turn our life
and our will over to the care of God as
we understood God so like yeah we could
talk about that from a secular cool well
we could talk about that from a secular
perspective and say well there's a
there's a higher-order moral principle
that needs to be brought into the
situation and you sort of describe that
right at the beginning of the question
because you said well what partly what
you do when you move from an addicted
state from a psychological perspective
is move from a viewpoint of the
gratification of immediate desire and
and maybe the accumulation of things as
a marker of success to the notion that
no you actually have a higher purpose
and that higher purpose might involve
being of service that could be of
service to yourself which means you
wouldn't be addicted any more because
that's not a good way of being of
service to yourself but of service to
yourself
the broader community however you might
define that that's a higher order
purpose and it can integrate your
motivations at a level that doesn't
leave you at the whim of impulse that's
the purpose of a higher order motivation
so okay so we've got three yes that's
that the first phrase to get you to that
position where you're willing to change
believing the possibility of change and
accept help in order to achieve that
change the fourth and fifth steps are
about inventory get like so this is
where the 12-step program becomes a
fusion of spirituality and
psychoanalysis because the fourth step
is like a four column method where you
write down a list of all your
resentments in your life and childhood
resentments your resentments up against
the government people you work with you
write all down and then there's a
diagnostic tool where you identify what
it is in you that doesn't like that and
and also interestingly in in 12-step of
theology let's call it it says that
anything any time that you are
personally disturbed there is you have
to take responsibility for it to a
degree there is something in you that's
being affect yeah you should at least
ask yourself that question
yeah is it me or is it the world yes
well let's consider first the
possibility that it might be I wrote
about that in the sixth rule right put
your so Jose yes yes yes in fact I've
got our to rule I might like I did a
truncated and somewhat more
linguistically explicit an exploitive
Laden version of the twelve steps and
I've got your twelve rules for life here
and they don't necessarily correlate but
like because like you know say your
first one stand up straight with your
shoulders back I that's a great chapter
I think and I love about you know the
lobster staff and this of their their
ancient timeless almost roots of
hierarchies and the chemicals that are
at play what's happening up when you're
immune to what was that play when we
talk about self esteem and like and this
year the six one set your own house in
perfect order I said before you
criticize the world steps four and five
in the 12-step program deal with that
inventory what's going on in your life
right inventory what are your baggage is
in your own personal you think it's very
practical doubt it's like well let's say
you want to fix up your house which is
actually quite a lot like fixing
yourself up which is
very common dream metaphor yeah well the
first thing you want to do is go look
around and see what needs to be fixed
you know and it's the interesting thing
about that and it's as akin to what
comedians do is that as soon as you're
willing to admit
comedians look at a problem and then
rise above it right away and make a joke
about it but as soon as you're willing
to admit that you have a problem then
you're immediately contacted the part of
yourself that's at least strong enough
to admit that you have a problem and so
soon the act of admitting the problem is
actually the first step to solving it
yes you might say well and it's an
optimistic step because you might say oh
my god I can't admit to I that I have a
problem because what if I can't solve it
Oh exactly so then maybe you won't admit
to it if you do admit to it you're
simultaneously admitting to the
possibility that you could solve it yes
and then it can actually become
something that's optimistic you can say
well my life is horrible it's like okay
but I'm doing 50 things wrong well great
I could fix those things and then maybe
it wouldn't be so horrible demonstrate
the admission itself demonstrates
progression and possibility for further
progression I think it relates that's
why humility is always stressed in great
religious traditions humility is
precisely that it's like you have to
look at why you're not so good yeah and
and you know that that has to break down
your pride to some degree in your
arrogance it's like well that's great
because if you break down your pride and
your arrogance then you're primed to
learn and you can solve your problems so
there's nothing in that it's a bit
crushing to begin with because you might
think oh my god there's really a lot of
things wrong with me yeah but at least
then you're on the on the road to fixing
them my personal journey of recovery has
been a good like a kind of death like
you know look at when I was 27 it was
like the death of the drug addict self
that guy does funny because I told him
you when we were coming here today that
when you were 27 you made the decision
to live yeah I knew it was 27 because
that's when people and I say like you
but you know celebrities who who are
sort of on fire they die all the time at
27 because they don't make that decision
they decide they don't decide that
they're going to take that final step
into maturation they want to hold on to
that Peter Pan thing that that parler
return is you bet you exactly that they
want to hold on to the
and you you can't hold on to that and
live yes and then there's a further
death I'm noticing now in my early 40s
like are now at the midway point yeah at
the mid lane of Dante s Quay and now I'm
moving towards the grave and now I'm
like there's a different kind of
alertness emerging and back to this step
four and five moment this process of
inventory after you've made an inventory
and you've you've correctly you've
honestly and openly put down everything
incidents of child abuse things that
you've said to other people things that
your shame once you've been willing to
inscribe your shame then you tell
another person a person that you trust
in the original literature it says you
know it could be a cleric or doctor or
whatever
typically in in 12-step structures it's
like a mentor figure but that has that
that's the role of confession which
offers a huge part of psychoanalysis the
point in your book I think this pertains
to is when you talk about the Dragon and
the dragon gate but you said there was
that kids book that you read where it
talks about the dragon getting bigger
and bigger if it's not identified I
think four and five are somewhat like
that yeah well in part of the point of
that kid's book is that as soon as you
turn around and look at something it
tends to shrink and that's partly
because imagine that you have a memory
that you won't confront well there's
something in that memory that's
terrifying
but and that means it's sort of
associated with everything else that's
terrifying
and so it's hor it's horrible but then
when you turn around and look at it you
think yeah it's horrible but it's it's
horrible in this precise and defined way
and that takes it away from all the
other potential horrors of it it starts
to shrink it right away it also makes
you into the thing that can turn around
and look at the horror which is a real
real positive transformation left on
your part so it's true that somehow in
like being being prescriptive and being
specific
the problem becomes manageable because
it's limitless it's not actual it
becomes apocalyptic in the end is what
what's the worst thing this cavern is I
could be destroyed and if I know love
could be destroyed and earth itself
could be destroyed and until you say
well actually know what this is is you
feel inadequate because you weren't role
model to correct right all right well
maybe take care of that right that's
still bad but it's not
everything and then you you phrased that
exactly right is that without that
attentive delimiting it becomes
apocalyptic that and that's a very very
old idea so one of the things that
happens in the Mesopotamian creation
myth the Anu male ish is that the gods
are created there they're that they're
the offspring of chaos that's a good way
of thinking about it and they become
very careless and they destroy their
category system they destroy their
father essentially and chaos comes
flooding back and that's what happens to
people who aren't looking at things and
delimiting them properly they become up
apocalyptic and do them in so but
sometimes in mythology there is the
positive confront confronting of the god
AG prometheus so sometimes we need to
steal steal the fire sometimes we need
to challenge these wolf the dachsies
don't we yes absolutely
I mean part part of the well part of the
death that you're describing is actually
the confrontation with a form of tyrant
like your previously addicted self was
the tyrant over your emergent self yes
and so it's an internal tyrant and you
said it was predicated on a false value
system that's a false set of God's
essentially and so you had to confront
that that is a kind of death I also
think that some addiction or addictive
tendencies and I don't mean as severe as
chemical dependency or forms of
addiction addiction are a kind of self
constructed formaldehyde to preserve you
in the state of trauma but trauma is
acknowledged no means to navigate trauma
are present because of the isolation
because you have no mentor you have no
you have no doctrine you have no
community so addiction steps in this is
how I will preserve this is how I will
not die I will find this rep notice that
it's a habit a repeated pattern to
sustain you a holding pattern so that
you don't die because there is no way
out there's no guide there's no path you
were just in the forest and there isn't
a way out so I feel that addiction for
personal experience and that I hope and
suspect more broadly is a means for sort
of stasis for preservation after trauma
the rupture occurs is not addressed and
a means for survival emerges in the form
of addiction addiction is not your
nemesis it is your friend at least while
you're you know in whilst you're well
there sir
the literature on addiction that
indicates that many people use addictive
substances as a form of self-medication
and they tend to find the drug that best
best medicates them let's say and for
different people that's different drugs
yes I think and now see one of the other
things I'm proposing in my book is to
use rather grandiose terminology is that
the the the template for a recovery from
obvious forms of addiction could be
applicable to less evident forms of
addiction ie just patterns and habits
and become well so far the things you've
laid out would be would be in keeping
with that I would I well you admit to
the problem yeah I really also I think
the idea of laying out your resentments
is unbelievably useful because that's
also a way of dealing with the
malevolence within you that might
interfere with your own recovery yes if
you're angry at yourself if you're angry
at your parents if you're angry at the
world the probability that you're going
to be in the mental state that's going
to allow you to chart a positive course
for yourself is very very low how can
you have a clear and authentic
relationship with your wife if you've
not correctly understood what you feel
about your own mother if you feel like
that you were a mesh or trapped in some
way how am I supposed to have an or if
I've not understood that if I've not
gained a new perspective if I've not
transcended it by sharing Sleeping
Beauty story in the Disney story when
the Prince is encapsulated in the castle
in the dungeon at the end and before he
goes and rescue Sleeping Beauty he has
to confront his terrible mother she
turns into the dragon of chaos itself he
has to use honesty and truth to confront
her and until he does that he can't free
the maiden from her sleep yeah so that
that's called the that's called the
freeing of the anima from the negative
mother archetype in union psychology
it's precisely that and that and that
negative feminine will be overlaid on
your partner unless you unless you're
able to clarify it and clarify your
relationship with it and that could be
something like overprotection
or it could you know in your past or it
could be neglect for that matter or it
could be the rejection at many at the
hands of many many women before you
encounter this woman yeah and that then
you were gonna bring that bitterness
forward as a kind of projection if we
are unwilling to undertake this kind of
excavation then we are doomed to
continually have relationships that are
cutaneous just the superficial
coordinates will govern our experience
of relations yes so that's the
repetition compulsion from a Freudian
perspective is that I mean that isn't
how Freud explained it that's how a
union would explain it but but the
simple explanation of it is well if you
bring the same set of presa unexamined
presuppositions to every situation the
same fate will play out you might say
well those women are the same it's like
well actually no but the part of the
part of them that you're able to make
contact with acts the same every time
that's a very different thing brilliant
and this is where six and seven the next
steps are chronologically occur but the
six having done this inventory you
recognize what patterns have been at
play in your life which particular in
the lexicon of the recovery defects of
character have governed you you often
pride one into control of a people's
perspective self-pity self-centeredness
intolerance impatience green jealousy
envy lusts right where you identify the
seven deadly sins and how they play out
in your life essentially yes and so and
you become in the step six it's about
becoming willing to live differently
saying I are you actually willing to let
go of lust are you or do you like lust
when it comes to it do you like being
impatient does it serve you in some way
to be slothful you know it's highly
probable that it does yes no it's it's
it's easy it's gratifying it's powerful
its pleasurable especially in the short
term like there's lots of there are
reasons that people are tempted by by
the seven deadly sins is the glorious
that dog Lorien that's right that's
exactly right there's a dark romantic
and you really see that in the deaths of
celebrities around 27 is they they fall
in love with a lure of that kind of that
romantic death and yes the men so the
anti libido the dark libido the death
force so with the once you have
diagnosed which particular defects of
character have been most prominent in
your path and become willing to let go
of them this like it's step seven is
making a concerted and real effort
without them and this is where it kind
of becomes that's a sacrifice theory
that's what are you willing to sacrifice
in order to move forward you have to
give up something that you love and you
may have to give up the thing you love
the best yeah it's the fundamental
sacrificial motif sacrifice is an
unattractive idea in our self in in our
society that's based on consuming and
the indulgence and this is not something
that I would like so this is again
perhaps you where you and I somewhat
differ is that I would not whilst this
will not change about the individuals
engagement a kind of step one an
acknowledgment that needs to be changed
this is where I say there is a social
responsibility but for whatever reason
our society has become a manifestation
of these darker impulses these are the
prevalent forces at least in the kind of
society I live in earth emits much live
in China or Libya I'm just saying like
in London like what you're too much
emphasis on because immediate
gratification is a tool of consumerism
this would be my argument I'm so like
but at this point in the program
it's where the the spirituality becomes
I find personally undeniable that you
have to you have to call to something
else you have to in a sense be lay
yourself open the idea of prayer becomes
quite important now so there's a there's
a union idea there so the Union self is
the thing that guides the ego through
transformations so imagine the ego which
is what you think you are mm-hmm all the
thing about the ego is the Theia can be
wrong and the ego can die and be reborn
so what that indicates is that there's
something underneath the ego yes it can
be a guide that process of
transformation is hardly what you're
calling on when you call on this higher
power is at least from a psychological
perspective it's a decision to rely on
that thing that can guide you through
transformations yes because surely as we
said in relation to another we are
likely relay into a set of coordinates
that we impose on invoke honors the
female the true same would be true of
the self that we have created an
impression an egoic impression we have
constructed an artificial self but
beneath it there is a higher self or
another yourself that's often composed
it's often composed of things that you
refused to or would we're
willing to develop and so when young
talks about for example the
incorporation of the shadow is that
you've constructed an ego and there's
things it can do and can't do that it's
allowed to do and it isn't allowed to do
and then there's a shadow domain that
would consist of those things that you
could do but haven't and some of that's
terrible but some of its what you need
to break free is an infinite variety in
the shadow or are they sort of templates
there would you say that you know a
common component of his last aggression
aggression too because they're the most
the two mobilized yeah they're the two
that are most difficult to integrate
into the ego because aggression destroys
and of course lost subsumes the
individual to to to well to sexual
sexual desire is such a lusty identified
is a very powerful self it can it can
subsume so I suppose that's why a lot of
theological doctrines focus on the
control there is of course it's a
disruptive force you know because for
example if you make a medium to long
term relationship with someone and you
negotiate that that provides you with a
stable structure that can operate across
your entire life and just good for you
it's good for them it's good for your
kids it's good for society but then if
you're really attracted to someone
momentarily you can be driven to act on
that and and and every all the rest of
that can burn up it's not good and so
it's no wonder that it's viewed as a
force of a tremendous disruption
now it's also a force of tremendous life
right because you want to be attracted
to people you want to have that that
that vital libido yes part of a part of
what's driving you forward but hopefully
it's on your side and not working
against you and so you know if you're
successful and you've put yourself
together and you're disciplined you
should still be maximally sexually
attractive but it should be under your
control you're not a you're not the
puppet of that force anymore
it's integrated into you and that's a
much better way to manage it how do you
in your understanding how is the shadow
incorporated what rituals what
ceremonies what behaviors
successfully incorporated shadow say in
the using the example of lust what's a
way back in for the sort of lust that
has been disembodied or repressed what
it's a safe way for it back in is there
well I think part of it is to is to
admit to your desires within your own
relationship you know because you might
say well I'm tired of my wife it's like
well yeah maybe maybe you're tired of
the games that you're intelligent enough
to play with your wife but she's as
pluripotent as you are and so you have
to admit to your desires let's say and
maybe you have to make them consciously
manifest within your own relationship
and then you know when people can do
that people do that by by dressing up or
by by playing sexually I would say yeah
because I play exactly that and play is
the transformative element and that is
you know and it might be that you're
uncomfortable with the idea of of your
wife as sexual plaything because you
think that a woman who's married should
be proper and prim and should only
behave sexually in a certain way in
which case well that becomes sterile and
dull and you're more likely to be
tempted by something on the outside for
me that's a very obvious example of how
habitual eyes thinking is prohibitive
even without reaching the extremes of
self-destructive addictive tendencies if
I have a habit of regarding my wife as
as object day even if that's not
objectification as we were typically
shaking but you know limiting beliefs
about my wife but the tools that break
down addictive thought patterns could be
used to create new terrains new liberty
new play thank you so like so once
you've done up to step 7 which is
essentially the same in your rights or
sacrifice of the old self and handing
over to some kind of sublime divine self
the step a is you make a list of people
that you have harmed and become willing
to make amends to them so you look back
at your particle garnishment of stolen
that I shouldn't have done that I
treated that person badly that was wrong
I lied so it's moral it becomes quite
immoral that's a real repentance right
an atonement atonement is at one mint
yes and if you're carrying
transgressions that you regard as
transgressions now in your life then you
don't want to carry those four you want
to you want to you want to step forward
in life without that moral burden
because you'll have contempt for
yourself otherwise and you won't take
care of yourself also in the sense we
would talk about about allowing
backand incorporate in last just then
this is a more broader method for
incorporating annexed aspects of the
self like you know how can you fully
love how can I fully love myself I know
I treated that person abominably well if
I go back and say that was wrong I did
you wrong I owe you an amends you were
you invite that part of your life in you
amend your path through life as well as
teaching yourself but that is not the
way we proceed anymore
that's the pay and that's a real that's
that's taking out that's real action in
the world it's not a hypothetical at
that point right yes it's kind of like
telling people what you've written down
about your about your faults yes yes he
says it makes it real when you when
you're acting it out with someone else
it's not only a mental thing at that
point doesn't it furthermore indicate
step by step a is done separate the step
a is right up the list people step nine
is now go through it it makes the
distinction I think to create a space
for you where you look at where you're
not continually thinking I'm not [ __ ]
doing that I'm not going to apologize I
was abused by them [ __ ] that they did as
much wrong as I did you know just which
is not the point right it's not the
point
and also I think they might have done
more wrong than you did yes but you're
still stuck with the fact that you did
something wrong that's right that's not
good and if you refuse to surmount the
obstacle of like you know some arbitrary
measure of who is more wrong then you
continue to cast yourself in victimhood
you have no personal autonomy it doesn't
matter if you're only 5 percent at fault
and it also doesn't matter if the other
person apologizes to you they should it
would be better for them it might make
things wait lay out that's not the point
and these perhaps is where what I think
it is significant that now your life has
become not negotiation between you and
other beings as they materially present
themselves but between yourself and this
higher purpose that has been declared
earlier that you are now operating on
the in a very common spiritual plane you
are no longer about if I do that I'll
get that it precisely doesn't matter if
every person goes I don't care if you
apologize on the side religious language
that would be expressed as the discovery
of your father in heaven instead of your
earthly father because your father in
heaven would be the higher spiritual
authority to which you will
agents and you can think about that
either in religious terms or non
religious terms is that what you've done
is you've in in some sense as you've
abstracted the the idea of a higher
authority and a higher purpose and
you've decided to devote yourself to
that that's a religious app and that's
precisely antithetical to post-modernism
is saying that then no no no there is an
essence there is a country there is a
way there is it that is that's right
that's that's that's what is precisely
antithetical yes because the postmodern
claim is that there are multiple ways of
looking at the world many ways and
that's true but the antithesis of that
is yes just because there's multiple
ways of looking at the world doesn't
mean there are multiple proper ways of
looking at them yes in fact there's a
very narrow range of proper ways of
looking at the world my my concern with
atheism has always been its of easy
affiliation with nihilism or why don't
we just wonder if it's not [ __ ]
people then that's not like that's like
that's where my mind immediately goes if
there is not an order why not just smash
everything 40 loreen's
and you're saying ideologically that is
what's happening ideologically we're
deconstructing God we're deconstructing
morality we do gender we deconstruct and
that was the danger that both nietzsche
and dusty asked you pointed to clearly
it's like you dispense with the
transcendent principle and you open up
the landscape for impulsive nihilism
well they responded to post
enlightenment rationalism is that what
does the S key and Nietzsche responding
to why they weren't responding
essentially to the idea of the death of
God both of them and and that explicitly
and is that an Enlightenment idea like
where is that where is death of God
happening at the hands of a kind of
arrogant and narrow rationalism and a
materialism and the exposition of
exponentially that has led us to where
we're going now which is a kind of okay
we're sort of digging the earth from
beneath our feet to be a base that's
right that's that's that's the
hypothesis precisely yes
10:11 the last free step step 10 is like
continue to make inventory so like let
this process continue like I mean for me
in psychoanalytic terms I see a
therapist obviously like his when like
when there's a moment I know any spike
in my
energy if I go oh I felt something that
was interesting I felt jealous there I
felt I felt small in that moment these
are the moments I know and go how was I
participating that what belief of mine
was being challenged is that a helpful
belief belief being a thought that I
like having and 11 right that's a kind
of consciousness is like well I'm gonna
fall apart I'm gonna make mistakes I
don't want to make mistakes I'm gonna
keep an eye out for when I do make
mistakes and I'm going to make them
conscious and then I'm gonna try to work
on them yes bringing them in to come
into consciousness because my fear my
number-one fear on a personal level and
possibly on a social level I don't know
quite how to extrapolate or conflate
those two notions is unconsciousness
I've get very afraid when I'm dealing
with unconscious individuals when people
when I'm people don't know why they're
doing what they're doing you may see
this in sort of violent rage or even in
less dramatical theatrical behaviors
there's a great idea that lurks at the
bottom of the Christian mythological
tradition is that a little bit of
consciousness destroyed the original
paradise we became conscious enough to
be aware of our own mortality but the
cure for that is way more consciousness
not a return to unconsciousness yes
there's no going back there's no going
back
I sometimes think the plethora of zombie
movies is you know they don't know
they're already dead I'm like so like
you know like that danger of the zombie
is the danger of the desire for
unconsciousness as a solution to life's
problem and I think that this is again
something we're be invited to to
participate in through consumerism that
live your life continually on the
frequency of unconscious energy such as
desire and fear that will not be we're
not being invited to participate on the
level of consciousness conscious
interaction presence in the moment well
you could make that case if you made the
case that consumerism promotes the
gratification of immediate desires above
all else I think he does that's my
that's what I'm pushing for this
original sin like so a little bit of
consciousness is a dangerous thing we
become with our vulnerability I morality
our nakedness and corporal nature but
the solution to this is to become more
conscious so we have to so how do you
how was that the Bible yes and where
does that get resolved yeah when they
get kicked out of the garden well well
well part of part of what happens in in
the in the redemptive story is if you
think about Christ as a symbolic figure
say a symbolic of the process of
transformation that we just described is
one of the one of the morals of the
Christian passion is that you need to
radically accept your limitations and so
part of this keeping your sins before
your eyes which you just described
here's all the ways that I fall short of
the glory of God let's say you know I
make this mistake I make this mistake I
make this mistake that's all
consciousness and it's painful right
because you think well you become more
conscious it's this glorious process of
enlightenment and overall it is but the
details are exactly this the things you
need to become consciousness conscious
of are precisely those things that you
least want to become conscious of and
that this is the motif that you
identified in the alchemical tradition
because the alchemical motile chemical
motto so to speak was that which you
most need to be found that which you
most need to find will be found where
you least want to look right yes and
everyone knows that's true like you tell
someone that big oh oh yeah yeah yeah
that's yeah I know that's true so and
it's also the greatest barrier to
enlightenment because if enlightenment
was all you know tulips and and sunshine
then everyone would be enlightened but
it's not it's this continual bringing
before yourself all your proclivity for
for transgression and that's that and
that and obviously because how are you
gonna solve your problems if you're not
aware of them people don't we all
discipline today Jordan well it's not
surprising but the alternative is far
worse that's the thing and that is the
disgust I was very curious I was very
curious like I said I talked about this
with Tami we're coming here I thought
Russell decided to live when he was 27 I
can't I would like to know why so why
did you well I didn't you just make the
decision to to not allow what was
consuming you to kill you in a sense it
was taken out of my hands for the first
time I encountered positive of Mel or
forty figures curiously like or at least
that were able to address that in
particular I was sent to a treatment
center I had three months had time to
think I had time to I
I passed from childhood directly into
addictive behaviors in fact those movies
were already present in childhood in a
less toxic form in my relationship in
retrospect with chocolate was addictive
my relationship with pornography as an
adolescent addictive I was using it to
for medicated and medical purposes so so
when substances became an option in
adolescence it was seamless and that
meant that my emotion when in my
emotional growth was arrested at that
point the reason I was able to stop is
because in advert I was offered help I
got give I was given help our people the
management company that was working with
senior serious drug addicts you should
go away
ok so partly that meant that they
regarded you as the sort of valuable
commodity that was worth preserving yes
there was a degree of that right right
well no but that's helpful I mean yeah
regardless of even if it's purely an
economic interest there's there's
something to that
yeah so and so then you went into
treatment and you find some previously
the place is run by an atheist chip
Summers but the 12-step principles you
can't unpick it from the Oxford group
first century Christian group you know
there's that and and I'm for me is more
appealing when you talk about it in
union terms though I have no problem
with the sublime and the divine yeah
live for that [ __ ] but like it like I
was always trying to get out of my head
off my face those were the things I
wanted a sublime experience my
experience of what is beyond the
material that's what I want to know
so like anywhere but once I was in that
environment and like you'd have given
drugs to help well I was addicted to
opiates oh I drug called subutex pain
and sleeping pills because I couldn't
sleep and during that time I suppose in
a way I didn't fully address the issue
of addiction because my I was really
promiscuous for about a decade behaviour
transplant it it's kind of effortlessly
but I do remember a kind of moment of
Epiphany if epiphany is revelation of
previously concealed truth when it first
occurred to me you I suppose you don't
have to take drugs every day I remember
that for entering and it being sort of
like yeah never thought about that
because that I'd found a solution it
worked it worked as a way of managing
pain
preventing further mental investigation
or discovery of conclusions that would
have been unhelpful and that wouldn't
have been able to deal with I think in a
lot of cases and I'm sure there's many
many variables that the actually
chemical dependency is a successful
technique for preventing suicide this is
a holding pattern that's not me doing
something more dramatic and bad unless
people have access to an ideology a
structure and support that will help
them through that there's it's very
difficult to overcome and I was
fortunate in that I was granted that and
then granted this system and so and as
I've been working it I've come to the
conclusion that it is I possibly
universal because I think it's derived
from universal ideas that's why I think
young I made that identified oh if
something like if there's a spiritual
experience and then the support of a
community that's how someone could be
stopped from drinking continually
alcoholic drinking and then they took
this process the 12 original toe step
fellowships took the Oxford group had a
program of of redemption and restitution
and yeah you know and like it seems
initially you know I think in a
materialistic society counterintuitive
to think that the solution to addiction
is going to be spare spiritual awakening
but that's what it is
and the final steps I'll stay connected
once you wrote like your continual
inventory and for the moment we think oh
I felt something there you know that you
want to be in the moment connected like
and what I have to note is if I come one
makes me feel inferior or if someone if
I'm sexually attracted to someone those
are the most obvious examples of
something that will take me out of my
connection and that the the final step
is made is help others right and remain
awake well that's the end of the hero's
journey is once you go into the darkness
and find something of value the next
thing to do is to distribute and
distribute it within the community to
bring it back and distribute it within
the community yes now to Lindy is it
like it it would be difficult for me to
accept that you've not been sort of
personally affected and are not
personally angry
rather than just objectively because
your personal trajectory I suppose in
the public eye at least began with the
situation in Canada with forced speech
or however it's termed now so like that
there are you able to distinguish
between your sort of sense of personal
irritation because but I think for most
people and tell me what we whether or
not you think is right there academia
seems like an ancillary area it doesn't
seem mainstream to most people but but
to you it seems though so very vital but
you are an academic well well okay so
there's there's two things there I mean
people regard academia as ancillary but
it's not the reason it's not is because
the universities train the people who
run things and so whatever's mainstream
in the universities right now even
though it's separate from society is
going to be mainstream everywhere five
years down the road and so that's that's
a big broad it's the vanguard I
definitely know there's no doubt about
it you think what's happening now in
terms of media and politics you could
could say you could preemptively if
diagnose that from what was happening
five ten years oh I think I think I
think that in some sense I was
preemptively diagnosing it because I've
been watching the politically correct
postmodern types for quite a long time
and one of the see one of the things I
noticed about five years ago six years
ago there were two things that I noticed
that I really didn't like the first is
that because I'm a personality
psychologists as a researcher not as a
clinician but as a researcher I I know
the literature on gender differences in
personality because it's part of my
field and I could tell that I was
starting to have some reluctance to
deliver the lecture on gender
differences and now I didn't stop but I
felt I felt that I was treading on thin
ice by delivering those lectures and I
thought oh that's not good because I'm
like a comedian I'm pretty much willing
to say anything that I think is true and
and you know regardless of the
consequences in some sense because I'd
rather take the consequences of what's
true and I thought this isn't good
because if someone like me who's you
know rather uncontrollably mouthy let's
say
is starting to have second thoughts
about teaching what's a very serious
topic and and and something about which
there's a very well-developed science
then how much are other people starting
to censor and at the same time my
students many of whom were female were
telling me that they were really
hesitant to talk about gender
differences in any of the courses they
were running and I thought oh this is
not good this is seriously not good and
so and it's certainly the case that that
my colleagues censor themselves
increasingly on campus with regards to
the topics they're willing to discuss
and it's subtle
you know because imagine in a given
lecture I could discuss any of ten
things and three of them are taboo well
I just won't discuss those you know and
that's that that that's a kind of
invisible censorship it's not like I'll
get up and say look I could have talked
to you about gender differences and
personality but I won't because I'm
afraid I'll just pick another topic
because there's lots of topics to choose
from and that means there's going to be
a bunch of topics that are really
important because actually the issue of
sex differences in personality happens
to be really important that people just
won't talk about and the other thing
that's so annoying about this is that
especially with regards to sex
differences in personality it well let's
say let's say that you're firmly on the
side of women just for the sake of
argument well do you admit to or deny
the existence of sex differences in
personality what's better for women well
you know the radical left is basically
say oh well those if you talk about sex
differences then you're part of the
oppressive patriarchy and you're
attributing to women a different kind of
temperament in the attempt to continue
the suppression but I could just as
easily say it's like well wait a second
like if you want to if you want to give
the individual the greatest degree of
freedom you say look you you're
different from another person you're
different on the basis of a variety of
your characteristics sex being one of
them that's going to have some effect on
what sort of choices you want to make in
your life it's like go ahead and make
whatever choices you want as far as
their a direct expression of your being
and so if you deny the existence of
these sex differences which no one know
serious commentator in the psychological
literature in the personality domain and
those are the people who know about this
thing
nobody debates whether or not sex
differences in personality exist or that
they have a biological component no see
and what's also interesting about that
is that none of those people are
conservatives there are no conservative
psychological researchers to speak up
they're in a tiny minority so the people
that have done the research indicating
that there are differences between the
sexes and personality and that those
differences have a biological in part a
biological component those are liberal
and left-leaning people who've drawn
those conclusions
despite their you know despite what
their ideological presuppositions might
have suggested to them to begin with
so well so you know it's I don't know
what to say about that except that it's
it's all appalling I suppose the fear
must be that difference will ultimately
be used for leverage for status sure and
that's a reasonable fear you know
because because anything can be
manipulated but but claims of identity
can of identity
that that people are identical in some
way can also be used for the same reason
you know if I insist that everyone is
exactly the same on all dimensions that
there's just as much of a totalitarian
threat lurking in there as there is the
threat lurking that will use differences
as an excuse
yeah and we're also not having a serious
discussion about this it's like yeah
there are men are over represented at
the top of the economic apex that's true
it's a small minority of men by the way
it's certainly not men in general but
they're radically underrepresented at
the board over-represented at the bottom
and believe me man like nobody cares
about men who are failures they are like
off the bloody radar yeah so and and
there's no sympathy for men who are
failures so men stack up at the top and
the bottom and and and we don't have a
discussion about that and we don't have
a discussion about the fact that women
are radically underrepresented in
dangerous jobs although they are or in
Oran or in in trades that require
brutal physical labor women are
radically underrepresented orin orin
jobs outside women erratically
underrepresented so the complaint is
always well if you look at the top one
percent it's there are more men than
there should be
you know by peer sex division it's like
well yeah but if you look at the bottom
the reverse is true so if we're gonna
have the discussion which I and I don't
really necessarily think we should have
that discussion but if we're gonna have
the discussion then we should look
across the entire economic spectrum I
wonder how much of this debate is being
governed by unconscious forces I wonder
how much of what we're experiencing is a
manifestation of where cartography has
not yet been well I think a lot of it
what are you thinking about any
particular part of it
what I feel like is that the reason that
I imagine that your arguments that are
based on research are so successful is
because people are expressing feelings
as opposed to cogent and researched
arguments it feels like there is a
powerful dominant patriarchy and no one
can deny I mean that there is power
there's such a thing as power and there
are people that benefit from structures
being as they are course if that's the
point of those structures being the way
they are one of the things I've observed
is that whenever change is discussed you
know and my tendency has always been to
be sympathetic towards movements that
are about change or empowerment of what
might be termed disadvantaged groups um
that changes all that when you're
curious about the resistance of change
or the different difficulties that you
face when trying to bring about change
look at who would be negatively impacted
were that change to be brought about and
usually that means that there's some
people for you know conservatism make
sense to a particular group of people
one things I felt when reading a book
was that you know like I I because I
think you're coming from a perspective
of psychoanalysis and it rings very the
language rings true
and the analysis rings true but what I
wear I feel one question I was keen to
bring to you is when you talked about
skateboarders in verse I think it's the
last but one chapter and that spirit of
a young people yeah courage and a
willingness to try dangerous things and
do push forward I wonder how that sits
with the idea of an earlier passage in
the book where you talk about the
gratitude that we should feel for you
know having time to read a book and the
ability to read a book and sort of
respect for the establishments and
systems that have been set up from which
we all benefit you know because when I
you know I I could find it difficult to
dispute your opinion about sort of a
churlish what would have been in the
lexicon of a day social social justice
warriors and that kind of somewhat
rootless unresearched rage III identify
what you're saying they're people that
can't keep their bedrooms tidy we would
be careful before you let them organize
an economic system but like but but
similarly like you know where is change
gonna come from who are who is going to
challenge tyranny yeah is it those are
the sorts of twin forces that we have to
contend with across the political
spectrum so I could run through
something quickly to put the things that
you just that you just brought up in in
in perspective let's say okay so the
first thing is is that hierarchies if
you're going to value some things more
than others then hierarchies are
inevitable and you have to value some
things more than others or you don't
have anything well you a low strength or
something well competence or sure
whatever whatever it happens to be the
ability to play the flute right it
doesn't matter what I on my list well
what what you know obviously if you
value music then you're going to value
some musicians more than others and
because some are better so is and so you
have to value things in order to move
forward in life and you have to value
things in order to have something
valuable to produce but if you play out
the value in a social landscape you're
going to produce a hierarchy and the
problem with producing a hierarchy is
that a small number of people are going
to be more successful than the majority
and a very large number of people
aren't going to be successful at all at
that particular thing it's inevitable so
okay now so so you must say well we have
to put up with that because we need to
pursue things of value okay fine so
that's the right-wing perspective is
that the hierarchies are justifiable and
necessary now the left-wing perspective
is yeah but wait a minute
the problem with hierarchies is that
people stock up at the bottom and that
they tilt towards tyranny across time
and that's also true and so you need
that dialectic in society between the
right wing that says you know we need
the hierarchies and they're useful and
you should be grateful for them and they
structure you and give you form and
provide value and the left that says
yeah but they exclude people and people
stack up at the bottom and that's
dangerous to the hierarchy itself and it
means that people might not have
opportunity and you have to say yes to
that the problem comes and this is the
situation we're in right now where the
radical leftists and this is mostly a
problem that really permeates the
universities the radical left to say
yeah but all hierarchies are just
tyrannical power it's like oh no they're
not hierarchies are based on competence
in a functioning society and mostly our
society functions so you need it you
can't go that far now that doesn't mean
that that hierarchies don't tilt towards
self-interest and tyranny across time
but that's a bad thing it's even a bad
thing from the conservative perspective
so well so there's room for the left
there's room for the left because the
poor will always be with us that's the
reason that there's room for the left
and that the dispossessed need a voice
not least because there are talented
people among the dispossessed and if
they're stuck at zero everyone suffers
because we don't have access to their
talents it's bad use of resources but on
the right it's like no we need the damn
value hierarchies we need to be grateful
for our traditions and our structures
because they they stop us from
degenerating into chaos also across the
society numerous hierarchies emerge and
at some point decisions are being made
about which thing you know is it being a
brilliant flautist or brilliant at
tennis or brilliant owning land or
controlling energy resources or
dominating financial systems which are
the hierarchies
most important and also the what because
like that it's the way that resources
are designated and challenging those
hierarchies seems to become well almost
impossible I'm when I was leaving the
hospital
the brilliant hospitals have been taking
care of my mother recently they're like
in it at the level of crisis and trauma
and tragedy they are excellent they've
got the sort of the best doctors is that
guy Martin Griffith they operated on her
bowel he's fantastic surgeon he it's in
fact him that Trump was quoting when he
talks about European hospitals with
blood spattered floors from knife crime
it was a sort of a mangling of a quote
that that this Martin Griffith forgiven
and then sort of like I step outside
like any what I'm driving along along
Whitechapel Road and there are
electronic advertising boards and it the
you know that require energy you know
tell me to eat you know sort of
McDonald's or Kit Kats or whatever and
there's so much poverty on that street
there always has been in that part of
East London terrible poverty and I feel
moments there are moments when I
helicopter out to the macro a
perspective that no individual can long
hold a weight that can't be long born
but in that moment I think why is this
hospital struggling for resources when
we can afford to run electronic adverts
for McDonald's who gets to decide how
collectively and individually do we
determine where resources and where
power both in terms of energy but also
in terms of human power end up how are
these decisions made and as you say
among the dispossessed there is there a
great resources great talent one would
imagine if the research were possible to
the exact same degree as there is power
and talent among the possessed because
it's normally an accident of birth that
decrees and reading about your early
life in Canada in a blue-collar
community and the sort of the mental
health issues and the anger and
agitation that grows there so much of
that is about resources the
dispossession of the native people of
that area the mental health issues of
your friend Chris
like that for me we that are rising
through these hierarchies we that have
experiences of both side of that line
well we are now challenging this
evolutionary force we are now in a
position to talk about these hierarchies
how they're ordered and how they're
organized and whether there is room for
negotiation well it's up to us to do
that we love housing we think there's a
risking conservatism is saying well this
is how the cards have fallen and of
course that is the risk and conservatism
so how do you use confront that well the
risk is the the the hierarchies ossify
and turn to stone and then there's no
mobility and and the idea that that
things can turn to stone and they become
tyrannical is an extraordinarily old
idea for example in in the story of
Exodus the story of Moses so the
Egyptian the Egyptians are portrayed in
that story as tyrannical conservatives
essentially right and they're masters of
stone and Moses is a master of water and
water is the thing that dissolves and so
that dramas being played out in these
stories that are thousands of years old
and in the Egyptian story the ancient
Egyptian story of Osiris and Horus
Osiris is the old king who becomes too
rigid and what happens to him is that
he's he's dismembered by evil that's the
consequence and so even the Egyptians
long ago knew that the danger of
hierarchies is they become static and
corrupt and tyrannical and so part of
what we do in our ongoing political
dialogue and and and when it's genuine
dialogue is to say well look are these
do these systems have it we need them
they're they're not avoidable but do
they are they functioning properly are
they loose enough so that people can
move are they are they serving the
broader good or have they degenerated
into something that's too tyrannical now
you know you you kind of pointed to both
of those in the way you formulated that
question because you said look well my
mom was in the hospital and she needed
care and so and I found a surgeon who
was an excellent surgeon and so so what
you did there basically was take about
two the you bowed before the functional
hierarchy of the hospital and said look
the greatest surgeon actually rose to
the top and thank God for that because
otherwise my mother would be dead
it's like yes that's our competency
hierarchy and it could be contaminated
by tyranny in which case it would be the
brother of some powerful person who
ended up with a surgical position right
and then everyone dies and that does
happen in many many cultures where
nepotism or connections define your
position on every axis but then you said
well but I went out of the hospital and
I was driving down the road and I saw
what appeared to be a micelle ocation of
resources and what we have to do about
that is have it have a discussion about
it constantly it's like are we
allocating resources to the appropriate
place mmm now the the other lurking
problem there is to what degree do we
decide about the allocation of resources
by voluntary effort by planning and to
what degree do we let the market take
care of it and that's also something
that continually requires negotiation at
Mars Cape May well on trust that well
that that's that that's the question is
people talk about it like it's a neutral
thing but it's just a conglomeration of
interests of the powerful well it's it's
it's a bunch of things I mean it's that
it can be that but it can also be the
way that we collectively value things
like let me give you an example
look at our collective values and I'll
just quickly say this yeah I heard this
thing in in Sweden they can't regulate
and control access to alcohol at a state
level like off licences or liquor stores
they're sort of socially run and like
and they're not allowed to be advertised
in Sweden do you know Sweden I guess is
one of those havens of what you might
guy don't know what your views are
Sweden but I see a lot of stories about
Sweden it seemed a bit like pegs with
Sweden comes across as I guess I sort of
this sort of postmodern democracy almost
in some respects anyhow like I thought
it's curious that they control alcohol
in that manner and I am envisaged that
sort of breweries and liquor
distributors would say hey that's not
free market you're controlling access to
you know people's access to alcohol as
if somehow the free market was neutral
but there is no neutral if the market is
what has the power people's desires will
be overly stimulated people in people
like if people that have McDonald's
advertised that they're more alcohol
advertised at them people will bloody
McDonald's and alcohol there has to be
some moral
in force there has to be something
that's not economically led that's not
the manifestation of greed that's in the
conversation someone in a secular
society where there is no reasonable or
trusted voice of God have to be able to
say don't worry too much people will
okay so so see I think I think the most
effective solution to that problem is to
have the economic system run let's say
by distributed individuals who are
themselves aiming at a higher good so I
think the way that you the most
effective way of regulating the market
so to speak is to improve the moral
character of the people who make up the
market rather than directly regulating
the market and not that the market
doesn't necessarily need some regulation
because you might say well how about we
don't devote alcohol advertising to
children under ten most people would
agree that that's a reasonable
perspective and so that is limitation on
market forces and there are places that
you can find that that that limitation
being accepted by almost anyone but but
the part of what you're pointing to is
that if the only thing that's governing
the market is concerned for pure market
success then the market can produce all
sorts of excesses but I think what you
want you want what you want is to help
orient people towards a transcendent
good that's oh that's over and above
market interest so you might say well
what interests should you serve as
you're trying to be successful as a
comedian there and while you're trying
to make a living as a comedian say you
might want to make sure that you're
conducting yourself appropriately in the
marketplace you're concerned about
yourself but also your future selves
because you have to take and that's
partly why addiction is such a
catastrophe right because it's great in
the short term but it's not so good in
the medium to long run so you have to
take care of yourself and and your your
iterations through the future you have
to take care of yourself in a way that
you're taking care of your family you
have to take care of yourself and your
family in a way that you're benefiting
the community and that should be
foremost in your mind so then when you
start to make economic decisions even in
your business you're not saying well I'm
going to do whatever I can to make as
much money as I can
you're going to say I'm going to do
whatever I can to make as much money as
I can well also making sure that I'm
taking care of myself and my future
selves and my family and my community
and being like great grateful for all of
that and serving it properly and then I
think the market can work more
effectively but still might require some
some discussion around the edges because
you know nothing is simple
so the reap the reason that I'm
concentrating on the individual and
individual development is because I
think that's the best way to do that
regulation I think that's important I
think it's non-negotiable I think it's
necessary but I also believe that if you
have a society that's predicated on the
some of the worst aspects of human
behavior last desire fear if lust fear
and desire are so high in the mix if
you're continually being prompted
towards onanism and consuming I think
it's the individual improvement will be
insufficient I feel that your success is
but I don't know it's based on but I
feel that to a degree you've contacted
people on oh yeah I couldn't improve my
own life I can have a bit of personal
for a and autonomy and I think that's
usually positive but if every time you
step out of your house every if every
time you interface with society or pick
up your phone or look at a screen the
aspect of yourself that's being nurtured
that's being invited to participate on
the lower aspects of your nature because
those are those most successful roots to
a person's decision-making impulses and
I think that it's difficult to exceed I
think it's difficult for these
individual projects tweaks to succeed I
think that you're you know certain
people will that that message will take
hold but others that it won't so on to
some degree we I feel like I ain't like
a big fan of regulation I understand
your irritation about what's being like
this uh sort of a post modern
deconstructionist
argument of let's destroy God let's
destroy all categories man woman none of
its real I believe in essence the humors
the deities the gods I feel these things
are present but I feel that we're
already being subject to a kind of
invisible tyranny that it's already
happening and I don't think it's
happening as a result of like some
critical theory
postmark system I feel that that's not
where power is that feels like it's sort
of so it doesn't feel like it's a
[ __ ] powerful was glaxo Klein or like
it's not as powerful as Halliburton or
like these that's what I'm interested in
is power real power and how power is
functioning and how power is the
negatively impacting ordinary people
well I think it's perfectly reasonable
to point out that there might be
multiple ways that people experience
tyrannical oppression now because every
hierarchy is going to tilt towards
tyrannical form in its own particular
way and so I've been concerned about
what's happening in the university on
the radical left and you're concerned
the concern that you just brought up is
something like overwhelming large-scale
corporate dominance and I think that's
also a reasonable set of concerns you
know it might not be for the best for
example that all of our communication is
filtered through Google mmm that might
be a bit too much the question is the
question always is is what we can do
about it and I think the answer the
answer is an answer to that actually the
answer is we can leave people's ability
to communicate untrammeled and so that's
why I'm an advocate of free speech we
can leave people's ability to
communicate untrammeled so that we could
have intelligent discussions about those
problems as they emerge and hopefully
work towards solutions because we can't
just generate a structure rules that
says well here's the ten rules that are
going to deal with that complex
situation because things change too
rapidly for that and the reason that
freedom of speech as far as I'm
concerned is the paramount freedom the
paramount right also the paramount moral
obligation is because it's through the
it's through our ability to exchange to
to to to exchange honest opinions that
we participate in the process that
enables us to keep tyranny of the sort
that you described and the sort that I
described at bay and so part of the
reason that I've taken the tack I have
politically is because while my
government had the gall to implement
compelled speech legislation without
noticing what it was that they were
interfering with because
you might say well well that's that's
pretty much the end of it how do you
keep tyranny at bay free the appropriate
age of ideas between free individuals
keeps tyranny at bay that's the best
we've got it doesn't work perfectly and
it's also I think a gift that England in
large part has given to the rest of the
world to formalize and codify that to
put it into a body of law to erect
governmental structures that are really
predicated on that idea it's a
remarkable achievement and it's
something we should be profoundly
grateful for thank you I want to talk to
you about the those taking that and
accepting prize on the behalf of England
[Laughter]
there are two dragons then there is the
inner and the at least until we've
reached some non-dualistic utopia where
everything is one there is the inner
dragon of our own desires and fears but
I suppose like when we're talking about
management of resources is that a phrase
that we came up earlier like that where
where does the attention need to go and
it's difficult like you know me I
suppose there's something about my
background that has led me to identify
as the dragon oh it's consumerism is
turning people into consumers because
obviously as an addict that's what I am
a consumer and wrote for a consumer and
it seems that you with your background
in academia this could the this
neo-marxist pose because like when I
sort of like think about aspects of
socialism eg you know people are working
to artists only work four hours a day
there should be time for fishing in the
afternoon which I think's in des capital
I think he talks about fishing in the
afternoon for me that seems like a very
beautiful and fair and just idea also I
don't see them like well so I can
imagine that they're irritating on a
campus particularly for somebody who's
research such a lot I don't see them as
powerful that's my that's part of my
intrigue
I suppose it's comparable to when I was
talking to Sam Harris another person who
I admire but whom I go like when I'm
talking to Sam Harris about Islam I'll
go but wind like where's how is Islam
gonna like I feel like
leave us Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism like
Saudi Arabia is an economic entity
they're not on Islamic entity in terms
of let's go do some Islam it's like do
some business no and like and so I
suppose here what my my well I'm
concerned mostly hmm I'm I'm concerned
mostly with the emphasis on on the
collective identity rather than the
individual identity like the process
that you just described I would say and
and this is the answer to the question
that you posed at the beginning of our
conversation is is there something
Universal about the process that you
laid out and I think there is and I
think it's at the core of individual
development and I think it's the most
powerful of forces and so I think that
the individual should be regarded as the
proper locus of evaluation and the
problem I have with the postmodern
neo-marxist types apart from the fact
that their analysis tends to lead to a
kind of nihilism is that because they're
making the group the paramount level of
analysis this sort of thing gets ignored
and I what I'm trying to do in my work
we have a program called the self
authoring program then kind of steps
people through these 12 steps that you
just described the first thing that
people do is write about their past all
the emotional experiences the second
thing they do is take an inventory of
their personality faults and virtues so
that they can rectify the faults and
capitalize on the virtues and the third
thing they do is chart a course for the
future that takes them into account and
others and so and I see it as a
reflection of this universal process
that you just described it I think it's
the most powerful form of transformation
but more importantly I also think it's
the one that risks doing the least harm
like it hasn't hurt anybody that you've
put yourself together it's just good
right it's good for you it's good for
the people that know you there's nothing
about it and it's it's the right level
of humility because you took what you
knew to be wrong in your experience you
took personal responsibility for it you
made changes for yourself you didn't go
around pointing the finger at what was
wrong with the external world and trying
to fix it now look it could easily be
that once you have your act together or
maybe even before you should be doing
some things too
adjust political systems or sociological
systems but the problem with that is
what makes you think you can trust
yourself hmm you know and it's like well
I'm compassionate Slyke maybe maybe
you're also envious of the successful
and the probability if that's pretty
damn high by the way and so you better
know before you express that compassion
especially in the political domain
whether or not that is contaminated by
things about yourself that you haven't
contended with do you think an honest
declaration or along those lines or
specifically that in the political field
would be refreshing look I'll tell you
one of the very funny things so the
ancient the emperor of ancient
Mesopotamia so this is some of the
earliest political documentation we have
by the way here's what they used to do
to the emperor every New Year's Day they
would take him outside the walls of the
city so he was responsible for
everything within the walls outside was
chaos and the unknown they take him
outside the city they'd strip him of all
his emperor garb so he's no longer
Emperor
they'd make him kneel they'd humiliate
him I think the if I remember correctly
the priest would hit him with a glove
and say okay in the last year how named
all the ways that you didn't embody
Marduk Marduk was the god of the
Mesopotamians and Marduk was the thing
that took on the great dragon of chaos
and so it was the it was the
responsibility of the Emperor to to
kneel down and say here's all the ways
that I haven't been acting out my proper
self and have brought the kingdom into
disarray and then he would be forgiven
they would act out the reconstruction of
the cosmos that was the New Year's
celebration and then he'd go in and try
to be a good king all right so yeah yeah
no kidding absolutely it's like the
confession of the Emperor here's the way
I haven't been good
are there any comparable of the powerful
held up for that kind of evaluation in
we don't have rituals for that well I
suppose we don't acknowledge the
emergence of order from chaos we don't
emerge acknowledge Divine Principle so
the powerful and I think this is
possibly because of it assumed
meritocracy you know people that are in
positions of power they're there for
reason you don't need it's not stripping
them naked and take that say how often
did you wank in that Oval Office yeah
every day
well I I think there might be something
to that and that's the danger of pride
that goes along with ascension and
hierarchy well because I'm here in this
position I must deserve it it's like
yeah but there should still be something
that you're bowing down to and that
might be the abstract idea of sovereign
Authority itself if you think about it
only psychologically that's a figure
that essentially has a touch of divinity
about it because it's the modifier on a
key right now huh so that's the between
the anointed and appointed monarch she
represents unity I suppose in a post
secular nation she becomes the emblem of
Britain rather than the emblem of God on
right well I think I think it actually
functions to some degree in defence well
I do think so because the Queen your
queen in particular our queen as well
because I'm a Canadian 18 you know I
mean I think Elizabeth has been an
embodiment of moral virtue
I mean she's done a remarkable job over
the last what is it 75 years now she's
held herself to an incredibly high moral
standard and I think she does sit in the
background as emblematic of what
sovereign Authority might look like but
of course you're postmodernist and this
is an area where because I mean I'm
English and I can't get away from the
love of the Queen but I would also say
that she is an emblem of authority and
of power and of wealth and land
ownership and there is that there is an
order that all be respected and can't be
challenged every so often this country
sort of toys with the idea of
republicanism they're always grateful
when there's a wedding right there is
this week so that no one has to think is
it right that we're angry this bizarre
spectacle yeah well but it is useful to
think about it in a symbolic sense I
mean one of the things that constantly
threatens the United States I think
there should be four branches of
government legislative judicial
executive and symbolic because the
problem in the United States is the
president keeps tilting towards King you
know the Americans like the idea of the
first family and the first lady and it's
like yeah no and it kind of tilts
towards a dynasty and you've seen that
happen with bushes and the Clintons and
it's not it's it's not a good thing
and it might be nice to have someone
take the symbolic load off the President
and just act that out and your queen
does that very nicely
because all of the pomp and circumstance
of the state and all the drama and
ritual of the sovereign can be played
out in that sort of dramatic space and
your legislature and executive branches
can go off and do the administration
it's interesting that the the dynasties
exert themselves in a sense it's a
demonstration of your argument that
there are certain hierarchical systems
that find their way into fruition
regardless of regulation but then I
suppose there's rational reasons they
would have the resources the experience
is that kind of the connection sure it's
easier for them but that's also the
that's a danger to a republic is the
fact that and it's part of the potential
corruption of the state is that well
it's easier for the children of those
who have authority to have power and you
don't want people attaining the pinnacle
of achievement because of power you want
them attaining the pinnacle of
achievement because of Commodus yeah
yeah and and those things always
struggle they oh and and it takes a
society that's very awake to stop the
hierarchies from degenerating into
hierarchies of power because the
generation is the tendency sure well
it's easy it's low wb8 sperm fearsome
and terrifying you know well and people
have recognized that it's the proclivity
of hierarchies to towards tyranny for
for really for thousands of years I've
seen that as a fundamental danger to
proper adaptation we need hierarchies
yes but they degenerate into tyranny and
they unfairly oppress it's like yes we
have to be on guard against that but
that doesn't mean that we call all
hierarchies tyrannies because that's not
helpful or we call all productive
activity service in the in the you know
in service to the oppressive patriarchy
because that's seriously not how helpful
and we don't dispense with hierarchies
because then people don't have anything
to do yes so I see I get the beam out
your eyes oh so if the individual is
attuned if the individual is a channel
I'm going to like their prayer of some
Francis I like it as a model that
invites us to find the reverse of each
defective characteristic that we all sin
that we might be living out
to become a channel of some inherent
goodness well while the other thing
that's one of the things that's
interesting two things actually the
first is the word sin means to miss the
target
it's an archery term so that's quite
that's a very interesting way of
thinking about it because it means that
there is a talking there is a target
that's the thing but the next thing is
and in this gun this comes right out of
that is it's very useful to become aware
of your faults because as soon as you
pause it a fault you pause it the
opposite by merely saying well that's a
fault
you're saying implicitly well there's
something that's the opposite of that so
out of your recognition of faults
immediately some clarity of virtue
develops because you might say well this
is a fault and I really know it it's oh
great you've got some bedrock there
whatever the opposite of that fault is
you might not know what that is but
whatever the opposite of that fault is
is a virtue and then you might say well
I have 20 faults it's like great the
opposite of the personality that has all
those 20 faults is the virtuous you
whatever that might happen to be well
great then you've then you've conjured
out of the devil I'm a redeemer it's
something like that I like that and the
undoubtably both in terms of cosmology
and fleeting morality there is chaos
there is vastness but there are also
patterns there are patterns that emerge
and whether you call that pattern mail
or love or beauty there are various
patterns and I feel that there there is
something to get in alignment with there
is attune there is harmony there is
melody there is grace we're not and all
you're using there are musical musical
that's what music expresses is to have
all of that in harmony yeah a lot of
musics because of that you know in those
patterns because music you think about
music it is the harmonious interaction
of patterns and you just described all
those positive what would you call them
spirits that's a good way of thinking
about it as patterns or they are
patterns then you might think that
there's a pattern that's composed of all
of those patterns well that's what
you're after here is a pattern that's
composed of all those patterns yes
absolutely and
you want to put yourself in harmony with
that and that is a real thing that's a
real thing you can feel that so it's
what keeps you alive essentially when
you're trying to become conscious yes
yes there is something important
happening I feel like what we were
saying before about the acknowledgment
of difference and needin info
inferiority that is something that
definitely what we should be actually
well this is part of what the radical
leftists keep saying is what we should
celebrate diversity it's like yes but
what that means first is the admission
that people actually differ you know as
you don't have diversity it's like I'm
glad there are conservatives I'm glad
there are leftists the conservatives run
things the leftists invent them it's
like good and they're really different
those people like you know if you if you
have a group that's all conservatives
and they're going down the right path
they're gonna go down that path really
fast but if they're going down the wrong
path they're not going to be able to
think laterally and figure out how to
get out of it if you have a group of
left-leaning creative types it's like
they're gonna come up with a hundred
ideas but the probability that they'll
organize in a stable hierarchy and
implement those effectively is zero
they're gonna have to call over the
Conservatives it's like look guys we
finally got a good idea you can have one
idea because you're conservatives run
with it and then they can all run with
it and so it's really good that we have
people who are like that on both sides
of the distribution because otherwise
the the creative types would sit around
and come up with new ideas till they
starve to death in squalor and thought
it's yeah well exactly and the
Conservatives would just ossify and and
you know run down a road that got narrow
or narrow narrow and they'd all end up
stuck between two cliffs hmm and that'd
be the end of it for both of them thesis
antithesis synthesis we require
synthesis this is so how does the
interplay of opposites actual opposites
yeah yeah yeah they're yin yang this of
yes there needs to be necessary
collusion between distinction but for
that to happen there needs to be
acknowledgement and recognition of
difference but in trying to achieve
equality with the annihilation of
category is not successful that's
exactly right
not a successful route hmm thank you
doctor professor Jordan Peterson we have
good chats don't we that was great yeah
that was really good
absolutely thanks for inviting me back
Oh No thank you thank you for time thank
you Thank You Tammy thank you