Joe: What I guess they call themselves incels
Involuntary celibates when all this stuff went down this guy drove his car into a group of people. It's a horrible tragedy
One of the things that you talked about with incels is that and this was a part of the... What was it? New York Times?
Joe: There's a New York Times piece
Jordan: A New York Times piece, yeah yeah yeah
Joe: You you said one of the cures for this is enforced monogamy
People decided and you know, I had never heard that term before quite honestly and I was like "what the fuck does that mean"?
It's a psychological term and what it means is enforced by culture that it is a good value
Jordan: Monogamy, yeah, because polygamous societies tend to become ultra violent
Joe: Yeah
Jordan: And that's been known in the anthropological literature for a hundred years and and certainly leftist
Anthropologists were among those who discovered it, like... She knew, the journalist knew perfectly
well what I meant by enforcement monogamy-- she's not stupid.
Joe: It's a- You use it as if everybody would understand it because you're an intellectual and because you're a professor and
Jordan: *laughing* It was also two minutes out of a two-day conversation Joe: Yes. That's all she needed. Jordan: It's like- so it was something we just glanced over
Jordan: Well, it's so fun..
That was funny in some sense because my sense is if you want to pillory someone
you should attribute to them views that someone somewhere has had and
The implication of that part of the New York Times article was that I wanted to, you know
Take nubile young women at the point of a gun under state enforcement and deliver them to useless men Joe: Yes, yes.
Jordan: It's like, no one has ever believed that, so attributing that...
Joe: But it sounds like that...it's a real...the optics of that, that statement are very bad
but the
The question is why didn't.. why wasn't there follow-up questions? And if there was follow-up questions to get you to define what you mean by
Enforced monogamy... Jordan: Well, there were, they just didn't make it into the piece. Joe: Well that's a real problem. Jordan: Yeah. It's a real problem
Joe: That's a real problem because that's- Jordan: It's so, it's so ridiculous- Joe: Because it's an inaccurate definition of who you are. Jordan: Well, one the things I've said
Continually, and, I'm- and this is on record in multiple places. It's like, okay, so you're a young man
Joe: Mm-hmm. Jordan: And all the women are rejecting you
Who's got the problem?
It's not all the women. That's a bad road to go down
If all the women are rejecting you
It's you. Joe: We both agree on this but why is enforced monogamy the solution for people that are involuntary celibates?
Jordan: Well, it's the solution to the- It's the solution to the relationship between men and women
fundamentally is monogamous social norms. Joe: Yeah, but these men are unattractive, but if these men are unattractive to women
I don't mean just physically unattractive, I mean women aren't seeking them as mates. Jordan: Mhm.
They need to become men. Jordan: Yes. They certainly do, that's the solution. Joe: That's the solution. Jordan: Absolutely. Joe: and we both agree on this
Jordan: Yes, but they need to do that in a society where monogamy is the social norm. Joe: But isn't monogamy a social norm
Anyway? Well, that was partly my point
Although to the degree that we deviate from that we tilt towards a more violent society. I was making a very minor point
Joe: I don't think they're related quite honestly, I don't think that involuntary celibates. I don't think that having
Enforced monogamy as a part of our cultural norm is going to help those people
Jordan: It does. Joe: How's it gonna help them?
Jordan: Well, because what happens is if a polygamous society develops, which is the alternative then a small minority of men get all the women
That's what happens.That's the only point I was making. Joe: Okay, I could see that Jordan: That's the only point
Joe: in a theoretical world where polygamous societies exist in mass and then you do have this problem with this a
small group of man that are fucking all the women
But that's not what we're talking about. Jordan: And also making the women unhappy, right? Because the women don't have any access to a genuine
Intimate one-to-one relationship over any long period of time, which doesn't work well- Joe: It's the whole idea you that woman want that, right? Sure.
Want that right sure if you have children. Jordan: Right.
Joe: But I still don't think that that is why these men are
Involuntary celibates and I don't think it's the solution to that. I think the solution is that they need to become attractive to women. Jordan: Yes
That is the solution, there's no doubt about that. Joe: I don't think the two are related. Jordan: Well, the only I was making a minor point
the minor point was that
One of the ways that societies around the world have figured out that you keep young male aggression under control is by enforcing
Monogamous standards because it gives everyone a chance in some sense. That's the only point I was making. Joe: Meaning it clears
more- uh-
More women will be available-
for one-on-one relationships, rather than one guy who is some-
You know
Whatever, for whatever reason. Jordan: Yeah, well you see this-yeah, Joe: Large figure in society.
Jordan: Well, you see this happening in universities where women outnumber men
So the man hypothetically have more sexual opportunity, but that isn't what happens
What happens is that a small minority of men have all the sexual opportunity,
a fairly large minority of men don't, the women are unhappy because they can't find a committed relationship
It's bad for most of the men and the men who have all the sexual opportunity gets cynical. Joe: But isn't this in some ways?
Against your whole idea of equality of outcome? Because you're you're talking about equality of sexual outcome. Now if these men have
That's the dominant basketball player that just kicks everyone's ass, this is the this
This is a guy who's succeeded at the highest level. Right? Well, there's going to be people like that
sexually there's going to be people that are better at finding mates and that
This is what they enjoy they enjoy having many mates, they enjoy being- Jordan: Yes. Joe: Yes-
But, but if this is what they enjoy, if it's a man who doesn't want a family and enjoys dating multiple women- Jordan: Hmm.
Why is that bad? Jordan: Well, I think the fundamental reason it's bad is because it's bad in the long run for children
Joe: It's bad for children if he chooses to have children.
Jordan: Yeah, well that's it.
But that's it, that's the fundamental issue as far as I'm concerned- Joe: Right. Jordan: and I think it's the answer. Look to give, um,
The journalist credit that is the point
She was making, you know, apart from pillorying me, and and and and caricaturing my perspective. That was the point
She was making well, first of all, I'm not in favor of unbridled hierarchies
I've already said that you know, the proclivity of a hierarchy is that they're all the spoils go to the person at the top
Right and that can destabilize the whole structure? Joe: Yes. Jordan: So we have to have a dialogue about how to rectify that
Joe: But how did you possibly rectify that if one man is but like say if we've got one...
Six foot five
Beautiful man, who's got a perfect body and he's brilliant and he just wants to date a bunch of women
Jordan: Yeah.
Joe: and all the rest of the people are
Five foot one and they're fat, and they're lazy, and like this guy's gonna-if this is the competition he's going to win. Yep
Jordan: Yep. Joe: There's no way around this and even if one decide to have
Enforced monogamy where it becomes a popular thing that women are gonna be more drawn to him if he chooses to date them they might
Decide I would rather have him sometimes than never at all. Jordan: Is that actually what does happen? Joe: But what is wrong with that?
Jordan: Well, what's wrong with it is that it destabilizes society and it's bad for childre. Joe: Right, and you said that,
but what if they don't want to have children, but there's a lot of people that don't want to have children
There's a lot of people that choose to go their entire life without having children. There's men in their 30s
I'm- some of my friends have vasectomies. They don't want children.
Joe: Hmm. So why why would that help in any way these involuntary celibates?
Jordan: Well, I think you tilt the society so that it serves the interests of well, that's a good question.
Joe: But do you see my point?
Jordan: Oh yeah, I do, I do see your point. No doubt about it. Joe: You're almost having you're almost forcing an equality of outcome
Jordan: No, that would- that was her point to- to the degree that she had a point
That was her point.
Now and but I but it does not run contrary to my opinions
That the issue of outcome has to be addressed
I already said there's needs to be a reason for the left and the right and that the problem with hierarchies is that they can get
too steep and destabilize everything. That does happen. That particularly happens in the sexual domain and there's plenty of
Anthropological evidence for that. But you still might say: Well, who cares?
Because the men who are, who are winning should be allowed to win and the women should be allowed to choose. Joe: Right.
Yes
except
that there's the problem of children and so society steps in on behalf of the children and you can say well lots of people don't
Want to have children and yes, and that's truer now than it used to be,
although many of those people end up having children anyways, you know the guys who are sleeping around all the time
So that doesn't circumvent the problem. But the issue here for me isn't the men or the women,
it's the children. If we're trying to set up societies where the probability that children will be raised in something
approximated an optimal environment is optimized and that's going to mean sacrifice of opportunity and choice on the part of adults, it's necessary.
Joe: I agree
with you
But I think that what we're talking about mirrors what we're talking about in sports, it mirrors what we're talking about in business
It's everything else. There's going to be people that are better at all different aspects of life
There's going to be people that are talented in terms of like getting women to like them. Jordan: Yes, that's true
Well, that's why, also look, you see this Joe: Right. Jordan: Women are high Pergamus, which means they mate up in a c-
They meet across and up dominance hierarchies
And so if you're a male who's successful in a given hierarchy the probability that you're gonna have additional mating opportunities is exceptionally high
It's an unbelievably good predictor of that. Joe: That hypergamy is a very uncomfortable
Discussion. Jordan: Yes. It certainly is.
There's plenty of uncomfortable discussions to be had. Joe: That's a big one though, Jordan: It is. Joe:
It is the idea that it defines women's sexual choices by the fact that they want bigger, better
Jordan: Well, well-
Joe: You know, someone who's more- more successful and someone who's higher on the social ladder than
What they're accustomed to or what they have now. Jordan: Yeah. Well, what women do is like- mate choice is a very difficult problem
So, how do you solve it? Well, here's how women solve it: Throw the man in a ring
Let them compete at whatever they're competing at, assume that the man who wins is the best man: marry him. Yes
It's a brilliant solution. It's a market-oriented solution
It's actually the solution that appears to have driven our evolutionary departure from chimpanzees. Joe: It's a biological
solution- Jordan: it's a biological solution , but it has a cost. Joe: What is the cost?
Well, the cost is the cost is-the cost is polygamy
And so we rein that in with enforced monogamy and we do that in order to provide stable- stable circumstances for children. Joe: Is
polyamorous as a polyamorous society just as unattainable as
this
Utopian Marxist idea? Jordan: Yes. Yeah, I think so. And this is another point I was making- because it looks like this is another point
I was making that didn't get covered in the in in the article or the wrote about it somewhat extensively on my blog is that
Society's tilt towards monogamy across the world. It's human universal
now that doesn't mean that people don't have polygamists or
polyamorous tendencies because they certainly do and it's certainly also the case that one of the- one the ways women that women gerrymander this system is that
like the number of wo- children, who are
in a
Say- say you're married, and you have children with your husband, but you also have an affair
So you have a child by another man. That's more common than anyone suspected
So part of the way we way that women solve the problem that you're just describing
And I'm not saying anything for this or against this
This is a purely factual biological claim is they pick a monogamous marriage and they cheat with high status guys
Now, you know obviously in the confines of the marriage that's a terrible thing
But- Joe: That's a very uncomfortable subject though for women in particular. Jordan: It's an uncomfortable subject for everyone! Joe: Right.
Jordan: It's a terribly uncomfortable subject. Joe: But it's a very uncomfortable subject
They don't like the idea that this is a common thing that women choose a safe man
That is willing to be monogamous with them and perhaps maybe they're above him in a social class or in you know
sexually and then they'll cheat with someone who's
Jordan: Well, it's common, but it's not the norm right? It's still the norm not to do that
The norm is fidelity. Joe: Right. Jordan: But but there's plenty of exception. Joe: And this is enforced monogamy, culturally, the norm.
Jordan: Monogamy is this it's like, okay
So my sons getting married
In in September and so so let's say he comes to me in the year and he says hey Dad. Guess what?
I've had three affairs in the last year and they've all been successful. I haven't got caught aren't I a good guy?
What am I gonna say to that?
No, what the hell are you doing!? That's not what you're supposed to be doing
That's enforced monogamy
Joe: Enforced monogamy meaning the people around you try to guide them in a way that you think is gonna- Jordan: Yes! Joe: It's harmonious family life. Jordan: Yes.
It's built deep into the cultural norms. And if that starts to destabilize then there's trouble and
That doesn't mean that it's not
Prone to all the problems that you laid out. Look, there isn't a bigger problem than
Successful reproduction, it is THE big problem and all of the solutions that we've generated
For it are full of flaws