in light of the brexit vote is it right
that Scotland should be denied a second
referendum what a surprise
Ian do you want to kick yourself on this
well I principally don't think there's a
mandate for it and I've always taken the
principled view and I do listen to look
forward to listening to what you've got
to say on this issue in the audience
this evening but I've always taken the
principled position that it's Scotland's
best interest to be a member of the
United Kingdom and actually the United
Kingdom's best interest for Scotland to
be part of it breaks it will be bad we
don't know what is going to happen over
the next 11 months we just all know keep
our fingers crossed that things will
work out I don't think they will but
that's a different question altogether
but to then have Scottish independence
on top of that in my view wouldn't be
the equivalent of cutting your nose off
to spite your face it'd be the
equivalent of cutting your head off and
I really do think we need some answers
to those big questions although maybe
Jeremy Corbyn saying he wouldn't if
people wanted it a referendum he
wouldn't stand in his way
well I thought he was wrong on that I
mean we're not principally an
internationalist part of it believes in
solidarity if you disagree with the ends
you should disagree with the means the
last politician who disagreed with the
ends but facilitated the means was David
Cameron on brexit and look what happened
so we just I mean we'll disagree on some
of these issues and we have to listen to
each other and respect each other's
opinions and there will be people in the
audience of people across the country
that think we should have a second
independence referendum tomorrow I think
it would be bad for Scotland's and tres
not just in the UK but in the world and
what we need to do is get on to two big
things one trying to deal with the
issues of public services in Scotland
that have just got progressively worse
for the last 10 or 12 years and secondly
let's have the bigger that the big
questions asked no I want a positive
discussion about why the UK is good for
Scotland and I also want to be able to
exploit my independence may be bad let's
have that debate rather than talking
about the process of whether or not we
should have a second independence
referendum maybe we'll hear tonight what
the currency would be the border at
barek all the wrongheaded arguments
we've had and studios like this for last
two years on brexit had exactly the same
wrongheaded arguments and Scottish
independence and we have to have that
debate well his first have a baby
I'm going to start quoting back Ian his
own words when he supported a second EU
referendum when he said when
circumstances change people should be
allowed a second vote I wasn't no we had
just let me finish
in saying that wasn't his folks a
lesbian I was cooking gala dinner but
did you agree with it on April 2019 in
the Commons last year you said that you
were said you were paraphrasing somebody
else but that's what you said yes but
you certain circumstances change people
should be allowed to say can vote now I
know at the time you were talking about
brexit but I'm seeing the same principle
that you were exposing their can apply
to Scottish independence people haven't
you know in 2014 when people in Scotland
voted to stay in the UK it was a very
different United Kingdom they were
voting to stay in one of the central
promises of the better together campaign
wasn't the way to preserve your youth
citizenship was two votes to remain part
of the United Kingdom that is now no
longer the case and were also faced with
the most right-wing government that
we've seen in modern times which
Scotland overwhelmingly didn't vote for
and I believe that there is a mandate
the Scottish National Party which
supports independence in the second
referendum keeps winning elections in
Scotland Ian we won the last election
pretty impressively was the party leader
with 45% of the vote and over 80% of the
of the states just quickly finish this
in an in the Scottish Parliament
Scottish Parliament are democratically
elected body for Scotland has voted to
hold a second independence referendum
and Paul's suggest that the majority of
people no one to second independence
referendum and is easing the burden of
the last peoples have shored a majority
in favour of Independence but but they
are close yes and in the margin of
errors they thought they can't be now as
strong as he liked their course but bear
in mind being mindless Fiona when we
started em the independence referendum
campaign back in 2012 we started at 28%
and we went to 45% some people think we
ran
top to above 50 and then fell back again
because of the vote we'll never be sure
about that let's do it let's start from
a beach would you say this is pretty
promising to run your campaign from a
base of 50 percent let's let's let's cut
to the chase what would you like to
happen I also got Nicola Sturgeon who is
who is requesting permission effectively
from the from the prime minister to be
able to hold a second independent you
want to get further than that don't you
well I want to make it perfectly clear
that I've never advocated a wildcat or
what some people call an illegal
referendum maybe rather surprising if I
did so given that I'm a senior member of
the legal profession and devoted a large
part of last year to defeating Boris
Johnson in court for doing something
unlawful however the weight of legal
opinion is that it is by no means
certain that the Scottish Parliament
doesn't have the competence to hold a
referendum so I agree that we should be
making sure that the referendum is
properly constituted and lawful but I
also agree with Nicola Sturgeon my party
leader that the weight of legal opinion
is that it's not clear that the Scottish
Parliament doesn't have the power to
pass a bill to hold a referendum and as
Nicola has said it would be interesting
to see that it tested my point is that I
don't think the Scottish electorate
should be at the mercy of Boris
Johnson's say so mr. Johnson is a man
with a very cavalier attitude towards
democracy and as we saw last year of any
cavalier attitude towards the rule of
law so I'm interested in finding ways in
which Scotland can hold a lawful
referendum but I'm more interested in
creating the vision and the arguments
that will win that referendum and I
think it's important to answer IANS
point Ian's simply wrong to see that the
Scottish government runs a pure public
services the facts and figures simply
don't bear that out and I'm happy to go
through them later
it's also possible okay Joanna it's also
possible to deal with constitutional
issues and run the country at this
title is lots of people want to cut it
yes so the man with the glasses in the
dark new sweater
buys the independence referendum who's
going to be pink or purple this okay I
didn't see that I'm gonna go run yours
just a bit then I'll come back to yes
the garner denim shirt initially is or
later men and we've an MP in Scotland
even could see that his party maybe need
to change their stance on independence
referendum a shift the one re-engaged
with a Scottish electorate so you said
that the SMP only got forty five percent
of the vote by no those are people that
would vote independence but didn't vote
for the SNP okay the woman in the purple
top glasses yes hello thank you and I
fear that breaks it has become a
convenient fuel to reignite the
independence fire and I think what
Scotland needs to hear is what the
economic arguments are for or against
independence so Tom correct is that is
the fuel to the independence fastest is
this gonna like Boris Johnson's door
responsibility for an independent
Scotland the guy I got into politics for
a simple reason which was to serve our
communities and to improve the lives of
the people we're lucky enough to share
these islands with and when I look
around the country and I see the
struggles that we're having in making
sure that the health service runs well
that schools delivering the results that
we want to see for our kids when I look
at the infrastructure investments we
need to see whether it's the Queensbury
bridge or any other different
improvements that we need to get and I
see another argument about a
constitutional change that is going to
distract politicians from serving people
from serving what we really need
reducing waiting times treating cancer
educating kids building the economy and
I see instead another argument about
whether or not we should split up our
country I have to say I find it very sad
and I find it very sad because this
isn't an economic argument for me this
isn't an argument as to whether or not
Scotland is big enough or too small or
whether England would be better or worse
without Scotland for me this is a
fundamental argument about who we are as
a people and when I look around these
islands I'm not a foreigner in Dundee
this is our country we share it we share
it together and I find it incredibly sad
when people talk in a way that splits us
and divides us and I know politicians of
all sides do it so I'm not making a
partisan point but I do find it deeply
sad when actually these islands have
done an amazing thing over the last 300
years they've achieved some fantastic
results yes we've had some mistakes too
but we have really brought an awful lot
to the world we have in a fantastic
force for good over many years and I
think it's a real sadness to see that
perhaps being thrown away and do you
think compensate for the woman point
there there any of the any of the the
blame for this lies with Boris Johnson
for pushing brexit when obviously
Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain
well we know from the last referendum in
2014 that the settled will the Scottish
people at the time it was clear I'm not
in a position to lecture I represent a
fantastic community in Kent and it's not
for me to tell the people living here in
this wonderful part of the United
Kingdom that how they should vote all or
what they should do but I I listen to
those people who led the referendum on
both sides and I I heard pretty clearly
that it was a decision for a generation
and you know five years isn't a
generation Alex well I mean Tom
obviously has done its best to you know
dodged your question there Fiona but the
answer to it is
you know and you've done so very
eloquently and elegantly and so on but
the answer to the question is that yes
of course brexit is at the heart of this
you know that if it weren't for brexit
we would not be talking about this issue
because it is brexit that has put it
back on the table and if you're an SMP
supporter it has put it back on the
table and ways that are quite reasonable
and persuasiveness on that it does make
for the kind of material change in
circumstance that would justify a second
referendum so from their point of view
yes of course it's perfectly appropriate
to seek another referendum right now now
the counter to that is also however
perfectly respectable and persuasive
which is that five years is not a very
long time and although brexit may or may
not prove to be a terrible blunder or
perhaps a great success who knows the it
is not long enough to justify a set
revisiting a question that everybody
promised at the time would be respected
for years to come and so you are talking
about competing claims of legitimacy and
that present at present you know this
may of course change it is if you like
on the anti referendum side that has the
ascendancy and the SNP when plenty of
handsome election victories and so on
although it is worth bearing in mind the
calibre of the people they beat but that
itself is not enough because general
elections are about lots of different
issues you know but when you actually
ask people should there be a referendum
and independence referendum on the
timetable notionally favoured by Nicola
Sturgeon ie this year or before next
year's Holyrood elections you find that
most people actually say no they
shouldn't
the most recent YouGov poll on this
specific question reported that 30% of
the snps own supporters do not think
there should be a referendum on that
time scale which is why I think the UK
government can get away with saying no
at the moment
now after a 2021 Holyrood election
depending on the results there and so on
circumstances may change and that line
may become much much more difficult to
hold but it will hold for now
because most people in Scotland don't
want a referendum if 80% of people in
Scotland wanted a referendum it would
happen but for as long as the country is
evenly divided it won't
good evening I'd like to ask five SNP
think that Scotland would be better tied
to France and Germany and would say Plus
separate us from England Wales and
Ireland as a group why do you think we'd
be better off tighter Germany in France
that's not what we think we think
Scotland would be better off as a member
of the European Union we also think
England would be better off as a member
of the European Union and it's my
dearest wish to see England come back
into the European Union and sit at the
top table alongside an independent
Scotland yes but you're very clearly
asking is why do you want to separate
from from the rest of the UK what are
you actually doing we don't want to
question because we don't want to
separate from the rest of the case it's
kind of implied part of the UK we want
to exercise our right to
self-determination and become an
independent country Jonah your deal of
doing to leave well that doesn't have to
involve separation we're not leaving
something the United Kingdom is a union
of two nations Scotland and England if
Scotland it was a voluntary Northern
Irish the Act of Union was a union
between Scotland and England if Scotland
wishes to withdraw from that Union they
will no longer be a United Kingdom the
way that we understand say us the reason
that we want of the European Union as we
see Scotland's future in the European
Union otherwise Scotland's future is
tight England completely at the whim of
her English voters choose from and that
cannot really right are you well I wish
everyone would stop interrupting me let
me answer the questions a union a union
cannot be a hostage situation and that
is rapidly what this union is becoming
because Scotland is facing borders being
set off when either side of our country
a border with Northern Ireland thanks to
the agreement that's been reached and a
border with the European Union now
so widely topher the European Union
that's the question because we could
talk about the European Union as a union
of equals in the European Union if a
small country like Ireland has concerns
those concerns are heard as with as much
weight at the top table as the concerns
of France or Germany we saw that during
the bracelet process contrast that with
the way Scotland was treated during the
bracelet process where none of our
concerns were taken on board at all so
we prefer a union of equals as opposed
to a union of last question it's not a
binary it's not an either be part of the
United Kingdom or be part of the
European Union first of all what we have
to do if we so choose if the people of
Scotland choose this is to decide to
become an independent nation and then at
that point we decide whether or not
being part of the European Union is what
is in our best interest I'm a passionate
year to file right now I would love us
to go back into European Union but by
the time we gain independence which
might be a few years down the road might
be next year might be whenever that may
not be the best option for us so it's
not an either/or it's not one of the
other it's the decisions that Scotland
makes for itself as an independent
nation that matters and I just like to
ask you and what would a mandate look
like
[Applause]
the questions out there Mandy doesn't
like 45% as we had on the 12th of
December so John Curtis the UK's most
eminent pollster said that you couldn't
extrapolate a mandate from the 12th of
December so Mandy according to Nicola
Sturgeon 18 months ago was consistent
60% the polls and what was remarkable
that this whole to be remarkable is that
the SMP have existed for nearly 70 or 80
years and still can't answer that lady's
question still can't answer the
questions about currency still can't
answer the questions about borders still
can't answer the questions about hope
will fulfill the deficit so we can also
you're having a private conversation
fascinating
just a minute you need to hear what's
going on you're all laughing there I
know your word in edgeways in a minute
I'm talking about the mandates of what
actually counts the mandates of when
people go to the ballot box what's
happened 4590 last year during the whole
breaks it they thank you there are lots
of hands up and let's hear from some you
where shall I start in the red t-shirt
there the front concert and Bordeaux's
Scotland forward twice's in European
Union and avoid borders and if England
would believe borders were on England's
fall not Scotland's faultless time
cotton say we can actually we've got a
functioning economy we can't have
overdone concept we saw choose to have
one but color see Union or not it
doesn't really matter we'll have a
function on currency not not have to
fight at the back in them strap top um
if there's one thing we've learned from
the brexit process is that division
doesn't drive progress in this country
it's time for is that we've been told no
to independence it's time for us to stop
debating it instead debate how we're
going to solve the high drug deaths in
this country how we're going to solve
trialed politic part of the tea sorry
because it's not happening and we need
to discuss it instead of independence
[Applause]
actually no sorry just the young man
behind you there and the t-shirt yeah it
was that it's quite rich how m26
well before brexit a lot of people said
oh we need other referendum on the EU
but I'm after but said the same face
although we can't have a referendum on
Scottish independence that's why the
second EU record there is a stupid idea
from the Scottish basically at the whim
of the English Parliament so will they
abstain from any boards to just involve
the English sorry I just would the SP
say that they at the whim of the the
English Parliament but they take part in
force that only concern legislation in
England English votes for English but is
no load - it is a you UK on thing that's
worth saying it's the one with the
blonde hair they're the UK Scotland vote
to the end in 2014 is totally different
to the ones day but until blacks it's
done how would we know what UK burr
voting to say and surely we need to wait
see what happens and then possibly
consider another independent random
we claim the kind to Eve because I
bought those when that wasn't the case
with you who didn't know what was gonna
happen reporters and maja way left the
European Union well knowing what it was
gonna happen there's nothing cool
that the obeah there's been approved and
ratified through both Parliament's so I
don't know how I could say I deserved
answers to those questions before we
left and we didn't get any answers now
when I was at school 45 percent meant
there was 55 percent on the other side
and 55% of voters voted not for the SNP
she'll leave that does not give them a
mandate because there's also there's a
percentage of dope nose so that might
not have applied school I'm not sure
Alex did you want to go I can I mean you
know at the heart of this and so on
there's a question of you know how do
you think about Scotland's future and
how do you feel about Scotland's future
now at the moment in terms of a
cost-benefit analysis you know unionism
probably still has the upper hand on the
what do you think in terms of the
financial arrangements the technical
practical aspects of Independence that
have been complicated and made more
difficult by brexit but in terms of the
how do you feel well the calculation is
changing there to I think it seems to me
there that the SNP and pro-independence
forces have the the upper hand and again
opinion polling demonstrates that I
think if you look you know votes of
people the views of people under the age
of 50 you find 60 65 % of them now
saying that they support independence
that's getting quite close to settled
will of the Scottish people type
territory and the problem for unionism
is that the gap on what do you think if
you like that the hard-headed
calculation has been narrowing while the
gap on the how do you feel has been
widening and in neither case is the
direction of travel working in unionism
failure favor and unless it finds ways
to address that and then unionism has a
long-term problem a medium-term problem
and quite possibly a short-term problem
too
how's your position change on this in
terms of the head versus the heart well
I have to say in the run-up to the 2014
referendum ice withered for a long time
on the one hand on the other hand as Ian
says he asked questions neither side
could give me a coherent answer and
really the basis on which I made my
decision then and I think it remains the
same know is I looked at what the
Scottish Parliament not just the SNP but
the parliaments in Scotland had done
since Hollywood began in 1999 and I
looked at what Westminster had done in
that same time period and I knew where
my heart lay and it was actually the
same place as my head lay that what was
best for people people Scotland have
been better served by what had been done
in their Parliament than the people of
the country as a whole by what had
happened in Westminster and that was the
basis on which I made my decision
I have a feeling that this is a topic we
will be discussing for quite some time
actually over over the next month's
years and I have no idea we will find
out to come
[Applause]
you