JUDY WOODRUFF: Russia's ongoing assault against Ukraine has kept the world on edge this week.
And it was a key focus of President Biden's State of the Union address on Tuesday.
To discuss all of this, we turn now to Brooks and Capehart. That is New York
Times columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, columnist for The Washington Post.
It's very good to see both of you.
But this has been a week, about the worst one we can remember.
Jonathan, as you watch these horrifying pictures, reports coming out of Ukraine, the brutal,
increasingly brutal tactics being used by the Russians,
what do you think we're learning from seeing all this?
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, three things come to mind, Judy.
The first is that, for a country as big as Russia,
as powerful as Russia, in terms of its armaments, its nuclear power,
and the threatening rhetoric and language from President Putin, I'm surprised by how slowly
things are going for Russia in its invasion and the war that it's unleashed on Ukraine.
The pictures are horrifying. The stories are heartbreaking, the lies that are coming out
of the Russian government about what it's doing and clearly what it's not doing as horrifying.
But the fact that there is a 40-mile convoy that is trying to make its way to
Kyiv, the capital city, and it's stalled, running out of fuel, being picked off
by Ukrainian forces, is something that is heartening.
Also, what's heartening is the -- just the strength and resolve
and the "We're not going to sit by and let you take over our country"
of the Ukrainians, willing to fight back, whether they're in the armed services or not.
The other thing is the strength of the Western alliance. The fact that you have countries like
Finland, Sweden, Switzerland doing things that they have never done in their history.
And that is breaking -- they have broken free of their neutrality, what they're known for.
Also, I was corrected during an interview with deputy Treasury secretary Wally Adeyemo yesterday
when I was talking about the resolve of the Western alliance. And he reminded me that there
aren't countries in the East, Japan, North Korea -- South Korea, Taiwan, that have all joined in
with the Western alliance and their sanctions in sanctioning -- in sanctioning Russia.
And then the third and last thing -- I promise -- is the -- all of this,
the strength of the alliances against Russia in its war on Ukraine,
could not have happened without the leadership of the United States. And we have to keep that
in mind. That is something that President Biden has said since before he was president,
that what's happening in the world right now is a battle between democracy and autocracy.
It is playing out day by day through horrific pictures there in Ukraine. And the fact
that the world has united against what -- most of the world has united against what Russia is doing
is testament to the fact that the United States, in terms of standing up for
democratic values, small-D democratic values, says that America is leading.
JUDY WOODRUFF: David, it is true. The unity is just stunning. And yet the Russians keep moving.
DAVID BROOKS: Yes, both these things can be true.
The Russian military seems to be picking up speed. They are a learning organization, just like any
first-rate military. And I assume they're going to correct early mistakes, and probably achieve
some just very, for us, disheartening successes over the next days and weeks.
At the same time, there's been a shift in consciousness. We have been living with a
democratic recession in this world for 25 years. The numbers of democracies have been shrinking.
We become embarrassed and worried about our own democracy because of Donald Trump,
because of populism, because of an ugly kind of nationalism.
And I don't think we have changed in our belief,
but it's diminished faith. And I would say, over the last week, thanks to the heroism of the
ordinary Ukrainian people, we been inspired to be convicted about our own faith again.
And I think a lot of faith has been restored, faith in our leadership
faith in the leadership of Zelensky, but also Biden, German leadership, French leadership,
Finnish leadership, Swedish leadership,
faith in patriotism. We have seen patriotism look like ethno-nationalism for a long time.
But now we see the Ukrainian people, who are patriotic about their own country,
warts and all, and how it's connected to universal ideals of freedom,
and then, as Jonathan said, faith in unity, that we all around the world saw a cruel bully gobbling
up another nation, which used to be normal in human societies -- that was just accepted.
But now we have, fortunately, been educated by ethos of modern
democratic liberalism to be appalled. And the world is appalled. And that's
true internationally, and it's also true domestically. If you look at the polls,
there's really not a lot of difference between Republicans and Democrats
on harshness toward Putin. If anything, the Republicans want to be a little tougher on Putin.
But it's not a partisan issue right now. And so morale is just super important. And it's important
in Ukraine, and it's important for us. And over the long run, there'll be a lot more to say.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And on that point, Jonathan, as we listened to President Biden at the State of
the Union, he did -- as we said, he spoke for a number of, what, 12, 15 minutes, about Ukraine,
but then the rest of the speech was about the United States and what it's dealing with.
And we heard him, as he called for -- he said, we're not going to send us troops into Ukraine,
but we are going to be very tough in imposing sanctions on Russia.
And our new poll with NPR and Marist is showing a huge percentage support, 83 percent
support those sanctions on Russia, and 69 percent say they'd support it even if it
means higher energy costs, so Americans prepared to have some sacrifice here.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Those poll numbers, Judy, are incredibly encouraging, because what it says to me
is that the American public sees that what's happening in Russia's war on Ukraine is
bigger than themselves, that, in order to push back Putin, you have to put aside your own kitchen
table worries, your own pocketbook issues and worries, and look at the bigger picture.
And if higher gas prices is what it means, and what the sacrifice Americans have to make,
in order to push back and authoritarian regime like Russia, to push back on an autocrat like
Putin, then that's a sacrifice they are willing to take. I'm very heartened by those poll numbers.
JUDY WOODRUFF: David, I mean, it is a recognition or an acknowledgement or an
acknowledgement that the American people are taking this seriously?
DAVID BROOKS: Yes, like people, so many countries around the world.
The crowds in the European streets today were astounding. When we spoke last Friday,
I thought the sanctions were kind of weak and that they wouldn't do much. And then, on Saturday,
the -- Europe and the Americans dropped the big bombs of taking over the Central Bank,
Russian Central Bank's assets, denying them SWIFT.
And the bombs have kept falling. I mean economic bombs. And the Russian economy is in real trouble.
And so the interesting thing to me is, as this drags on and, frankly, as we see more horror,
and our blood gets up, can we keep this level of unity together? Can we prevent
ourselves from getting carried away and wanting to do things like a no-fly zone, which I think
would be an act of war and real trouble? But can we keep up and help the Ukrainian insurgents?
Can we keep up the economic pressure? The tools we have
are slow. And so it'll be the -- in a month, we will see if these numbers are still there.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Jonathan, you mentioned approval of President Biden. He did speak a
great deal the other night at the State of the Union about his domestic agenda.
And it was very interesting. Again, this poll that the "NewsHour" did with
NPR and Marist shows that his approval rating is up eight points. It's 47 percent,
up from 39 percent just a couple of weeks ago. So there's something behind that.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Yes, there's something behind that.
And that is what the American people wanted to hear from the president,
in addition to showing American leadership against Putin and Russia,
but what they wanted to hear -- and I think they did hear it -- a president who understood that, as
well as the economy seems to be doing here in the United States,
that they have issues -- they have kitchen table issues that they want the president to address.
They wanted to hear that the president understood that inflation was eating away at their paychecks,
whether they got wage increases or not. They wanted to wanted to hear whether he was going
to do something about child care, health care, prescription drugs. All those things, those
laundry list issues that the president got knocked for spending time talking about,
well, the American people wanted to know what he was going to do about it.
So, from the kitchen table perspective, I think voters heard what they wanted to hear, maybe not
the entire solutions, but they heard that the president was serious about addressing them.
And then it gets to the larger thing. Again, in this battle between democracy and autocracy,
as candidate Biden said, and as President Biden has
long said, democracy in order to win against autocracy has to show that it can work.
And the way it shows it's working is by delivering for its people.
And so if the president can get some headway, if Congress can pass some of
the things he's talking about, including that unity agenda that he outlined in the speech...
JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: ... then democracy will have a chance of showing that it can work.
JUDY WOODRUFF: But this increase in approval, David,
particularly interesting, because there's been so much focus lately on inflation.
DAVID BROOKS: Yes. We will see if other polls carry it.
I assume our poll has got something accurate to say, and it'll be confirmed by other polls.
I think it's partly COVID is easing. As Jared Bernstein, the economy,
at least job growth is pretty fantastic. Rally around the flag in a time of war.
And I think Biden is rediscovering the language of his campaign. One of the problems he had is
that independents, people sort of in the center, his approval rating among that community was about
down to 30 percent. In the State of the Union, he spoke a lot more to that group. He emphasized,
we're going to refund the police. He emphasized that we're going to try to keep gas prices down.
He talked about things that are not particularly ideological, but are broadly supported, on mental
health, on cancer, on opioid addiction. And so he's rediscovering a more centrist language.
And if he wants to be reelected, he's got to win over working-class voters of all races and creeds
in Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania, and Michigan, and Arizona, and Georgia.
And so focusing on those working-class voters in those
five states is the key. And I thought he did a pretty good job with that Tuesday night.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Jonathan, no question the president did spend a
lot of time talking about what he called the unity agenda. He does seem to be trying to
reach across the aisle to get some Republicans on board.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right.
He's trying to reach across the aisle. And, as president,
the American people want to hear him reach -- hear him and see him reach across the aisle,
which then puts the onus on the Republicans. The president has reached out to his hand in
friendship, in let's work together. Now the onus is on the Republicans in the House and the Senate
to reach across the aisle and work with the president.
Time will tell if they will actually work with him.
JUDY WOODRUFF: Jonathan Capehart, with those sunflowers at your side, the flower
of Ukraine, and David Brooks, thank you both. We appreciate it.
JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks.
DAVID BROOKS: Thanks, Judy.