>>> WELCOME BACK.
SOMETIMES YOU FEEL LIKE YOU’RE
ADDICTED TO SOCIAL MEDIA.
CHANCES ARE YOU’RE NOT THAT FAR
OFF.
>> THAT’S TRUE.
THE NETFLIX DOCUMENTARY "THE
SOCIAL DILEMMA" SHOWS HOW
INFORMATION COLLECTED ONLINE MAY
BE USED TO INFLUENCE OUR LIVES.
BUT A LOOK AT THE DOC THAT’S
GETTING HUGE BUZZ.
>> Reporter: DESPITE SOCIAL
DISTANCING, IT SEEMS WE’RE MORE
CONNECTED THAN EVER THROUGH
FACEBOOK, INSTAGRAM, TWITTER,
AND THE EVER-GROWING LIST OF
APPS BUILT TO KEEP US TOGETHER.
ALMOST 80% OF AMERICANS, ABOUT
247 MILLION PEOPLE, ARE ON
SOCIAL MEDIA PROVIDING THESE
SITES WITH PERSONAL DATA WHETHER
USERS KNOW IT OR NOT.
>> EVERYTHING THEY’RE DOING
ONLINE IS BEING WATCHED, IS
BEING TRACKED, IS BEING
PRESSURED.
EXACTLY WHAT IMAGE YOU STOP AND
LOOK AT, FOR HOW LONG YOU LOOK
AT IT.
FOR SERIOUSLY HOW LONG YOU LOOK
AT IT.
>> YOU WANT THEM TO KEEP DOING
THIS WITH THEIR FINGER.
>> Reporter: IN A NEW NETFLIX
DOCUMENTARY "THE SOCIAL DILEMMA"
FORMER GOOGLE DESIGN ETHICIST
SAYS THOSE BEHIND THE FEEDS ARE
PREYING ON US BY NURTURING OUR
ADDICTION THROUGH PERSUASIVE
TECHNOLOGY.
>> I WANT TO DIG DEEPER INTO THE
BRAIN STEM AND IMPLANT INSIDE OF
YOU AN UNCONSCIOUS HABIT.
>> Reporter: BUT COULD OUR LIVES
ONLINE CREATE A BUBBLE OF
DIGITAL DEPENDENCE THAT LEADS TO
SOMETHING MORE DANGEROUS.
>> A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK GOOGLE
IS JUST A SEARCH BOX AND
FACEBOOK IS A PLACE TO SEE WHAT
MY FRIENDS ARE DOING.
THERE’S ENTIRE TEAMS OF
ENGINEERS WHO USES YOUR
PSYCHOLOGY AGAINST YOU.
>> JOINING US NOW IS THE
DIRECTOR JEFF ORLOVSKY AND
TRISTAN HARRIS.
GOOD MORNING TO BOTH OF YOU.
>> MORNING.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
SO THIS DOCUMENTARY HAS GONE
TOTALLY VIRAL.
HERE’S THE THING.
DO YOU THINK IT’S IRONIC THAT
PEOPLE ARE DISCUSSING THE FILM,
RAVING ABOUT IT, ON THE VERY
SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS IT WARNS
AGAINST?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
I LOVE THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY
PEOPLE POSTING ON TIKTOK THESE
EXTREMELY IRONIC THINGS.
JUST RECOGNIZING THIS HAS BECOME
OUR NEW PUBLIC SCAREQUARE.
IS IT IRONIC?
ABSOLUTELY.
WE’RE LOOKING TO CONTINUE TO
HAVE THE CONVERSATIONS ON THE
PLATFORMS.
>> WE REACHED OUT TO FACEBOOK
FOR COMMENT IN A STATEMENT THEY
SAID IN PART THEY AGREE WE NEED
TO HAVE SERIOUS CONVERSATIONS
BUT THE FILM, QUOTE, GIVES A
DISTORTED VIEW OF HOW SOCIAL
MEDIA PLATFORMS WORK TO CREATE A
CONVENIENT SCAPEGOAT FOR WHAT
ARE DIFFICULT AND COMPLEX
SOCIETAL PROBLEMS.
TRISTAN, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY
ABOUT THAT?
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK WHAT SOCIAL
MEDIA COMPANIES HAVE BEEN SAYING
TO US IS WE’RE HOLDING UP A
MIRROR TO SOCIETY.
IF YOU HAVE POLARIZATION,
DIVISION, THOSE ARE YOUR
PROBLEMS AND WE’RE HOLDING UP A
MIRROR.
THE PROBLEM IS THESE COMPANIES
PROFIT FROM FURTHER DIVISION.
IMAGINE THERE’S A FACEBOOK FEED
AND ONE FACEBOOK FEED GIVES YOU
A FEED THAT CONFIRMS YOUR
REALITY.
AND THEN ANOTHER FEED
CHALLENGING VIEWS OF REALITY.
WHICH ONE OF THOSE TWO FEEDS IS
GOING TO BE BETTER AT KEEPING
YOUR ATTENTION WHICH IS THEIR
BUSINESS MODEL?
THE ONE THAT AFFIRMS YOUR VIEW
OF REALITY.
SO IT TAKES OUR SHARED TRUTH AND
PUTS IT THROUGH A PAPER SHREDDER
THAT PUTS US INTO ALL THESE
NARROWER AND MORE EXTREME VIEWS
OF REALITY WHICH IS REALLY
DAMAGING OUR COUNTRY.
BECAUSE IF WE CAN’T AGREE ON
WHAT’S TRUE, EVERYTHING ELSE
FALLS APART.
THIS IS REALLY THE MOST CRITICAL
THING IN THE FILM.
>> YOU JUST USED THE PHRASE
SHARED TRUTH.
IT BRINGS ME TO MY NEXT
QUESTION.
SO MANY KIDS ARE ONLINE NOW
DOING VIRTUAL SCHOOL INCLUDING
MY OWN.
LET’S SAY FOR EXAMPLE THEY’RE
RESEARCHING A CONTROVERSIAL
MOMENT IN HISTORY LIKE DICTATORS
OR CONSPIRACY THEORIES.
WOULD THAT AFFECT THE
INFORMATION THAT’S RECOMMENDED
TO THEM?
>> YEAH, THAT’S A GREAT
QUESTION.
IT’S HARD FOR US TO KNOW ALL THE
NUANCE OF WHAT’S GOING ON WITH
THESE ALGORITHMS IN LARGE PART
BECAUSE OF THESE COMPANIES.
WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THE RESPONSES
ARE BASED ON THE PROFILE THAT IS
CREATED OF US.
AN EXAMPLE WE USE IN THE FILM IS
AROUND THIS PHRASE CLIMATE
CHANGE IS.
AND IF YOU SEARCH THE PHRASE
"CLIMATE CHANGE IS" IN GOOGLE,
YOU WILL GET DIFFERENT ANSWERS
BASED ON WHO YOU ARE.
THERE’S AN AMAZING BOOK CALLED
ALGORITHMS OF OPPRESSION THAT
CAME OUT AS WELL THAT IS ABOUT
HOW WE SEE THE SAME PATTERNS
WITH -- WITHIN THE RACIST
CONSTRUCTS THAT EXIST ON THE
INTERNET.
SO THE ALGORITHMS ARE GOING TO
GIVE YOU THESE PERSONALIZED
VIEWS, THESE PERSONALIZED
RESPONSES BASED ON WHO YOU ARE
WITH NO REAL SENSE OF AN
OBJECTIVE TRUTH.
>> WOW.
>> WELL, SO HERE’S A QUESTION.
DO WE NEED TO -- IF WE DELETE
SOCIAL MEDIA -- LIKE I KEEP
TELLING MY KIDS JUST GO TO THE
LIBRARY.
IS IT REALLY REALISTIC?
>> WELL, IN MY MIND WE HAVE
CREATED THESE PLATFORMS IN A WAY
WHERE WE ARE ALL -- LIKE WE’VE
ALL GOTTEN SUCKED INTO THEM.
AND WE ARE USING THEM IN MANY
UNCONSCIOUS WAYS AND JUST KIND
OF PASSIVE WAYS.
ONE OF OUR SUBJECTS SAID THEY
SEPARATED OUR INTENTION FROM OUR
ATTENTION.
AND KIND OF HIJACKED YOUR
ATTENTION AND TAKEN US AWAY FROM
WHAT WE WERE INTENDING TO DO.
I PERSONALLY HAVE REMOVED MYSELF
FROM THESE PLATFORMS.
OVER THE COURSE OF MAKING THESE
FILMS.
AND I DON’T FEEL ANY LOSS IN
LIFE.
I DON’T FEEL DISCONNECTED.
I’M IN FACT ENGAGING WITH MY
FRIENDS AND FAMILY THROUGH
FACETIME OR ZOOM ALL THE MORE.
BUT I’M NOT USING THE PLATFORMS
THAT HAVE A DIFFERENT BUSINESS
MODEL, THAT HAVE ULTERIOR
MOTIVES.
THAP ARE TRYING TO MANIPULATE MY
TIME AND ATTENTION.
THERE’S A LINE IN THE FILM, IF
YOU AREN’T PAYING FOR THE
PRODUCT, THEN YOU ARE THE
PRODUCT.
THAT IS A A COMPLEX SET OF
ISSUES BUT THAT’S THE EASIEST
WAY TO THINK THROUGH IS THIS
SERVING MY INTERESTS?
IS THIS DESIGNED FOR ME?
>> SO IS THERE A HAPPY MEDIUM.
I CAN’T EVEN TELL MYSELF I’LL
GIVE UP MY PHONES.
WHETHER WE’RE ON TWITTER, SOCIAL
MEDIA WHATEVER IT IS.
YOU HEAR TAKING THE COOKIES OFF.
OBVIOUSLY THIS IS WAY BIGGER
THAN THAT.
IS THERE ANY ONE THING WE CAN
ALL DO TO PROTECT OURSELVES?
>> MY BIGGEST THING PERSONALLY
IS THERE’S A NEW BREAKDOWN OF
OUR SHARED REALITY.
THE BIGGEST THING WE CAN DO TO
PUT REALITY BACK TOGETHER IS DO
A SCREENING OF THE FILM.
WE’RE SEEING SCHOOLS DO A WHOLE
SCREENING OR FAMILIES WHO CAN’T
TALK TO EACH OTHER.
YOU WATCH THE FILM TOGETHER AND
THEN OPEN UP FACEBOOK ON TWO
PHONES AND YOU BOTH USE FACEBOOK
AND DO A REALITY SWAP.
YOU ACTUALLY HAND THEM YOUR
FACEBOOK FEED AND SCROLL THROUGH
FOR A LITTLE BIT.
YOU’LL SEE, OH, THIS IS WHY THEY
BELIEVE THE THINGS THEY’RE
BELIEVING BECAUSE THAT’S THE
INFORMATION THEY’RE GETTING.
I THINK THIS IS SO INKRIBLVISIBL
US BECAUSE WE’RE NOW TEN YEARS
INTO THIS MASS HYPNOSIS
EXPERIMENT.
THAT’S THE THING THAT GIVES ME
THE MOST HOPE.
I’M HEARING FROM FAMILIES AND
PARENTS SAY THIS IS THE FIRST
TIME I’VE BEEN ABLE TO TALK TO
MY KIDS ABOUT OUR USE OF
TECHNOLOGY AND WHAT’S HEALTH Y
I.
>> THAT’S FASCINATING.
ALL RIGHT, GUYS.
LET’S SWAP PHONES DURING THE
COMMERCIAL BREAK.
WE REACHED OUT TO YOUR FORMER
EMPLOYER GOOGLE FOR COMMENT AND
WE DID NOT HEAR BACK.
JEFF, TRISTAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH
FOR TALKING WITH US THIS
MORNING.
PEOPLE AT HOME CAN MAKE UP THEIR
OWN MINDS AND WATCH "THE SOCIAL
DILEMMA."
IT’S STREAMING NOW ON NETFLIX.
>> IT IS -- AND I DON’T SAY THIS
LIGHTLY.
I WOULD CONTEND THE MOST
CONSEQUENTIAL DOCUMENTARY I’VE
SEEN IN THE PAST THREE OR FOUR
YEARS.
THIS ECHO CHAMBER THAT HAS LED