of government this Valentine's Day find
someone who looks at you the way Rishi
sunic looks at Boris Johnson
[Music]
a loyal Chancellor and an obedient
cabinet how many hospitals
how many more police officers are we
recruiting right how many nurses more
nurses have new buses what more could a
prime minister host four thousand
beautiful british-built low carbon low
carbon buses the shake-up of cabinet and
replacing the Chancellor is about number
10 centralizing power good morning and
the new secretaries of State today had
gushing words not just for the PM but
his chief special advisor to I've known
and work with Dominic Cummings for many
years on a number of projects he's a
very brilliant man he's absolutely
passionate about supporting the prime
minister's vision and agenda and I think
there's a really great team at number 10
to drive that forward are you running
number 11 as well as number 10
Dominic Cummings himself had few words
to share this morning a polite greeting
and a laugh when asked if he was the
Thomas Cromwell of politics but in his
speech some six years ago he outlined
his vision for government so that would
be on my to-do list if I ever managed to
successfully get control of number 10
treat the cavernous the idea become that
over 30 people is complete for us break
the power of the Treasury
is that power now broken the man in
charge of the nation's finances until
yesterday was at a town pensioners fair
today
Sajid Javid quit unwilling to accept
number tens demands that he replace all
his advisors but other ministers signed
up to Downing Street conditions the
justice secretary Robert Buckland agreed
to fire his advisor here's how it
happened he came back to the office I
gave him a big hug and said well done
great stuff you're a great guy he said
thank you very much he talked me through
his conversation before us a little bit
and then said I'm sorry I have some bad
news for you is this the behavior of a
strong government or a weak government
that's insecure I think it's an
incredibly strong government Dominic
coming still in a meeting with what I
was attending a byte six months ago and
said we're going to get brexit done
we're going to have an election and
we're going to win a big majority I
stood at the back of my arm told them
and thought no chance mate we did all
three he was absolutely right
and I was absolutely wrong one even
those who are sacked stay on message you
know there's a new discipline in town
but how long will it sustain so back to
our main news the reshuffle and apparent
power grab by number 10 I'm joined now
by three people who've worked for Prime
Minister's and chancellors here with me
in the studio Stuart wood who advised
Gordon Brown while he was at the
Treasury and when he was Prime Minister
James Johnson was a special adviser to
Theresa May and from Norwich the former
civil servant Caroline slow who was
private secretary to Margaret Thatcher
before working in the Treasury and I
wonder Caroline slow when you see
Rao's about special advisers and
Chancellor's walking out weather
memories come back definitely it really
reminds me of that day when Nigel Lawson
quite unexpectedly came over to number
10 and said either he goes or I go and
he was talking about Alan waters a
special adviser to Margaret Thatcher and
she would was I think shocked that he
thought that it was worth resigning over
a a mere adviser she's famously said
ministers decided my
as advised but she stood by armed
Walters and Nigel Lawson left and she
appeared rather like the current Prime
Minister to have won the battle but if
you look over the the next year she
actually lost the war she put in a
former chief secretary they very young
John Major to become Chancellor and
hoped that he would be malleable and she
could get her way but in fact he managed
to persuade her that she should join the
erm at the very point on which Nigel
Lawson was trying to get her to agree
with him and so the young malleable
chancellor became the prime minister yes
a year later she was actually you know
she expected it was knifed in the back
by Geoffrey Howe a former Chancellor in
a speech in the House of Commons which
led to her eventually resigning and at
her side was Nigel Lawson it took a year
but he ultimately got his revenge so you
know I think that the current prime
minister should think carefully he might
have looked rather cheerful today when
he was getting his ministers to almost
sing along with him in cabinet repeating
after him key pledges but it's not a
good look for a prime minister to be
bullying their ministers and looking
like they're he's pulling the strings of
a sort of mere puppet figures well and
the Treasury is a very strong Department
and the Treasury ultimately got its way
wrongly actually because we crashed out
of the erm bring in Stuart wood I mean
are we still in an era in which advisors
advisor ministers decide or do advisors
decide and ministers do what they're
told well there are there always
advisers like Alastair Campbell in the
Labor years and maybe Dominic Cummings
now that have power beyond purely being
people who whisper in the ear of their
boss I think the really interesting
thing about what's happened in the last
24 hours is not so much Richie
really seen that coming in in place of
the Chancellor Sergey Javid but the way
that special advisers are now instructed
to report to Dominic Cummings and number
10 because it transformed it might seem
a small thing but it transforms the
dynamic of the relationship between the
advisors and the ministers inside their
own department if a Treasury special
adviser is now taking instructions from
number 10 about what the Treasury can
and cannot do at
he transforms a Treasury standing and
the minister standing inside the dip but
a lot of people go who cares this is
about you know the interpersonal
politics of a few people I don't care
about the questions how does it change
the delivery of governments does it make
it better or worse I think I think
purely from a conservative government as
well as national interest point it makes
it far worse it won't matter in the next
week or two or three weeks or four weeks
it matters when things start to go wrong
when things start to go wrong the blame
fingers are all pointed at Number ten
because they have now taken the higher
and firepower over the key political
appointments in the department's
Department's brief against number ten
they wash their hands so it makes a
massive difference when things start to
go wrong that's when you'll see it but
James Johnson I mean you know if Dominic
Cummings warmth control and he clearly
does doesn't this mean he can now do
what he wants to do and yes it means you
can't blame anybody else but at least
you know he gets to change the world you
know with all the country at least I
think this certainly puts number ten in
a very strong position some people have
said well actually look you know you've
had joint teams working between number
10 and number 11 before and the Blair
and brown under capper and Osbourne the
difference there is that Gordon Brown
was a very strong / to go figure as was
George Osborne they were able to provide
that push back to number 10 I think
there was one point of caution in this
so yes we've seen a very powerful number
10 out of this they have to remember
that you know Dominic Cummings also
didn't win every battle this this year
in January you know over hs2 hawawa but
what we certainly are seeing here is the
institution of the prime minister number
ten really sort of having a big impact
on those other cabinet posts it doesn't
really matter in a sense you know what
some of the who some of these ministers
are and some of these posts we're in a
world now where number 10 is calling the
shots and that has big ramifications so
can i smoke i mean how easy is it really
to control the Treasury which is a vast
institution you know is it as much of a
pushover
as the current occupants of number 10
might think it's a very powerful
Department and it's full of often quite
brilliant people and it has a tremendous
grip on the detail of government in the
way that number 10 never can so I think
it's it's it's not going to be a
pushover
I think we need to look at the long game
I think it may well be that the Treasury
has its way on this even though I think
it sometimes does take the wrong
decisions it can't be far too short term
but I think the other point is you know
about the importance of good
cabinet governments if you're going to
deliver things not just campaign as
Dominic Cummings and the government is
successfully done but actually deliver a
lot of detailed policies on the ground
and there's a lot of detail to do for
this government then you have to have
strong ministers you know it's it's not
just a political game delivery involves
real people out there trying to get lots
and lots of things done and you need
strong ministers so this is undermining
of that process I think it's been a lot
of centralization since my time and
number 10 in in in in number 10 and also
the Treasury and it's it's it's not the
way to go we actually need more
delegation and more effective government
across a range of departments so I think
it is bullying your ministers is is a
bad tactic and it may look strong in the
short run but look back to Margaret
Thatcher and see what happened to her it
doesn't necessarily pay off in the end
Sherwood I mean it kind of takes you
back to sort of Yes Minister doesn't
know so you know I'm Carol I spoke up
says you need strong ministers when you
look at that old speech of Dominic
Cummings which is on the internet from
2014
his vision weakening the Treasury
sackings no civil servants when it when
you want to it's as though you know he
thinks actually you don't need strong
ministers you need strong advisers and
strong officials yeah and they're the
people who will really run the show yeah
I think that's the fascinating thing
about this government is it's taken the
cult of the advisor which was already
quite strong in the labor years to new
heights the idea that a strong network
of advisers can effectively run the
government but how does it work because
you've been an advisor I mean you know
it's tempting to think of the adviser as
the person who tells the minister what
to say and what to think
well the ministers are just the frontman
I think there's very truth to that
advisers in departments job is to help
ministers make the right judgments and
be a kind of connecting tissue between
the officials and the minister in number
10 it's a completely different kettle of
fish advisers in number 10 have huge
power they speak on behalf of their boss
to departments he can't get access to
their to the Prime Minister for key
decisions so the number-10 advisers can
indeed steer policy and in in my day I
mean people are Android owners do there
was education advisor to Tony Blair in
the late 90s he was probably as powerful
if not more than education secretary so
that's not that new and I guess
all depends James Johnson on whether
they deliver as to how the public judged
this certainly and you know we may be in
a situation where you know this does
lead to a lot of delivery it may be that
it causes problems I think the other
thing to really think about in this it's
the size of number 10 because you know
it might be a completely different story
if a number 10 had lots and lots of
people had really strong central
organization was able to might manage
all of these things but actually it's
quite smaller and only about 150 to the
full-time staff there it's not a sort of
massive organization and certainly when
I was there you know people are
stretched not everybody is aware it's
literally a house right so there are
teams buried away and borrowed away in
little different rooms they're not
always talking to each other and it's
quite difficult for an organization of
that side to manage the whole of
government and how easy is it for orders
issued by Downing Street to get garbled
and changed along the way as they go
through thousands of civil servants
what's gonna happen now if the Treasury
will go into a huge institutional sulk
at this and things will go to the
Treasury and nothing will come back the
Treasury has information and the Prime
Minister is in danger now of with these
changes of being in a position of making
announcements and having no idea whether
there's a cost overrun or what they'll
cost down the line because the Treasury
will not want to share information if
everything is going straight back to
number 10 straight away that's a real
problem for any Prime Minister