we start with breaking news this morning
even more audio recordings of house
leader kevin mccarthy coming to light in
just the last half hour cnn playing even
more audio from the authors of the book
this will not pass
in it you can hear mccarthy's thoughts
to his caucus in the immediate days
after the january 6th attack on the
capitol here's part of it
well let me be very clear to all of you
and i've been very clear to the
president
he bears responsibilities for his words
and actions no if ands or buts
i asked him personally today
does he hold responsibility for what
happened
does he feel bad about what happened he
told me he does have some responsibility
for what happened
and he need to acknowledge that
and in a separate recording leader
mccarthy has even more strong words for
former president trump
i know this is not uh fun i know this is
not great i know this is very tough but
what i want to do especially through
here
is i don't want to rush things i want
everybody to have all the information
needed
i i've had it with this guy
uh what he did is unacceptable
um
nobody can defend that and nobody should
defend it
let's bring in nbc news senior national
political reporter sahil kapoor nbc news
senior national politics reporter
jonathan allen and david drucker senior
political correspondent for the
washington examiner uh all also author
of the book in trump's shadow the battle
for 2024 and the future of the gop sahil
in in that audio we hear mccarthy say
trump admitted to bearing responsibility
for the attack some responsibility is
this the first time we've heard this
well it's certainly the first time we've
heard a senior republican official say
that trump has acknowledged his role
that he has some responsibility in the
january 6 attack what trump actually
said
less than clear we don't have the tape
of that but mccarthy's saying you know
mccarthy someone who has who did speak
to trump was closely allied with trump
at that time saying this on tape is very
significant jose and there are a number
of big questions to watch here between
this and the startling audio uh that was
played last night on rachel maddow's
show it's not very often that
politicians get caught red-handed saying
on tape something that they
categorically emphatically just denied
saying the biggest question here is how
does donald trump himself react
everything kevin mccarthy has done in
the last year and a half his number one
number two and number three priority has
been to become speaker of the house
everything else has been noise and his
close alliance with trump despite some
of the things he said initially after
the january 6 attack has all been in
service of that goal to become speaker
he believes he needs the former
president's support to do that the
second question is how do his colleagues
in the house react did most of them you
know
offer him an amnesty on this because
many of them had the same journey that
that he did uh angry upset disappointed
annoyed with president trump right after
the january sixth attack and then the
politics settled out turned out
republican voters stuck with donald
trump and they decided to go along with
it as well are they going to be angry at
mccarthy um or are they going to forgive
him there's also one thing in the audio
yesterday jose that really stood out to
me mccarthy made an offhand comment to
teams about a question regarding vice
president mike pence potentially
pardoning trump that suggests a theory
of criminal exposure you know simply
beyond impeachment and conviction which
mccarthy said in that audio seemed
likely to happen uh a startling uh
series of audio tapes here that could
have major implications going forward
jose
yeah i mean it's it's amazing just you
know even the quality of the the
recordings i mean it's so clear
david you've done deep reporting on the
relationship between the former
president and leader mccarthy let's talk
about his relationship with his caucus
jonathan
um yeah uh so the relationship between
uh mccarthy and the caucus is one that
has been generally good but somewhat
strained the freedom caucus in
particular the hard
core right folks uh some of the folks
you know by name matt gates and others
have been trying to uh agitate to get
rid of kevin mccarthy this is gonna add
fuel to that fire we've already seen uh
gates commenting on a little bit uh one
of the things that is a problem here for
kevin mccarthy is that there's no wind
here he is going to anger everybody on
the one side he said it was unacceptable
we've heard the tapes now on the other
side he's uh you know down at mar-a-lago
uh dancing with donald trump uh and now
he's characterizing what donald trump
said to him saying that trump said he
bore responsibility it is almost
unimaginable to think that donald
trump's not going to respond to that and
deny it at some point what we have here
if you take a a sort of um
you know a scope back for a minute is uh
i know it's a man bites dog story but
republicans in absolute disarray right
now um and basically the leader of the
party in the house and the former
president of the united states who wants
to make a comeback and complete conflict
over the responsibility of that
president for the riot that we saw on
january 6th kevin mccarthy is going to
have a lot of explaining to do not only
to donald trump but to his own
conference about what exactly happened
why he has done
these pivots and then why he denied what
is so clearly on tape uh as jonathan
martin and alexander burns the author of
that new book uh this will not pass
we're able to present to rachel maddow
last night uh on msnbc
yes a matter of fact david i want to
play more of that audio the one that was
released yesterday here it is
again i mean the only discussion i would
have with him
is that i think this will pass and it
will be my recommendation we should be
done
um
i mean that would be
my take but i don't think he would
take it
but i don't know
now so far david congressmember liz
cheney and steve scalise have denied
leaking this audio how is this going to
play out in in the caucus you think
right and i think that's the most
interesting question here you know trump
and and mccarthy have a uh sort of a
topsy-turvy relationship but always in
one direction with mr mccarthy trying to
satisfy mr trump and when i interviewed
the former president last year
about this he was very aware of the
power he has over elected republicans
including mr mccarthy because
so many of their own voters
care about the relationship that trump
has with
elected republicans in congress and and
and it's so important to keep mr trump
satisfied because of that and so i don't
think the issue here is necessarily will
this impact trump and trump's
relationship with mccarthy or vice versa
will trump look for another candidate
for speaker of the house if republicans
win the majority
in november because of this because i
think he likes the way his relationship
with mr mccarthy works where mr
mccarthy's always trying to satisfy and
keep trump um assuaged uh from doing
things that would be counterproductive
to republicans political ants i do think
the question here and and we've all
gotten to it here in this discussion is
how do other house republicans react to
this
you know when you are a leader of the
conference
whether you're the top leader or a major
deputy leader you don't get to say
anything in your function as a
congressman from wherever or a senator
representing the state of whatever
you are always speaking for the
conference and guess what happens when a
leader says something that might be
problematic it's problematic because
your voters back home start to say what
the heck's going on with your leadership
and do you agree with your leadership
and so
of everything that that mccarthy has
said in these amazing revelations from
jonathan martin alexander burns and this
will not pass
the one that could cause uh mccarthy
some trouble is saying that trump
admitted to some responsibility i expect
the statement any minute for trump says
i never said any such thing but the
bigger issue for mccarthy to get through
if he's going to get through it is
does he keep his members on
on board with his his candidacy for
speaker can he keep
any discomfort that they get back home
in response to questions about this at a
minimum and if he can do that then this
is really interesting and important news
but it won't impact his trajectory much
if this becomes a problem where voters
back home are asking their members what
the heck's going on with your leadership
then mccarthy has a problem
and then also david i mean the fact that
uh you know in his caucus when when he's
talking someone is recording it and and
recording a a series of conversations
and then and then passing that recording
on i mean that in and of itself shows
not a lot of loyalty or even support
right
well what it shows is that you you're
breaking the iron-clad rule of politics
that you are not supposed to break and
right we think we've broken them all but
you're supposed to be able to trust your
colleagues
and i think i think
i think that you can forgive the leader
in this regard he was speaking in the
heat of the moment probably imagining
that this was finally an issue that
trump could not get past they had just
been through an insurrection where they
were forced to flee for their lives from
the capitol uh but i would just say that
a lot of the initial assumptions here
have been
that somebody like eliz chaney she's
she's unequivocally denied it somebody
who is upset with mccarthy's
equivocation must have leaked this but i
really wouldn't be surprised that it's
somebody who doesn't want him to be
speaker
from the trump wing of the party or from
that angle because this is the sort of
thing
particularly after mr mccarthy's denial
yesterday and proven on his denial
proven uh not truthful by the tapes this
is the sort of thing that can really
cause you a problem
and
i wouldn't be surprised if it's people
that really don't want him to become
speaker from the part of the conference
um that is more aligned with uh former
president trump that had something to do
with this the conference is more than
200 strong
i mean you just can't assume
somebody isn't going to pigeonhole this
stuff and put it away for a rainy day
when they think it's going to be useful
david drucker sahel gabor and jonathan
allen thank you so much for being with
us
so
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