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>> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY.
WELCOME BACK.
MY NEXT GUEST IS THE "NEW YORK TIMES" BESTSELLING AUTHOR KNOWN
FOR HIS BIOGRAPHIES OF FIGURES LIKE LEONARDO DA VINCI, STEVE
JOBS, AND ALBERT EINSTEIN.
HIS NEW BOOK IS "THE CODE BREAKER."
PLEASE WELCOME, WALTER ISAACSON.
WALTER, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME BACK.
I APPRECIATE IT, STEPHEN.
>> Stephen: IT'S ALWAYS A GOOD CONVERSATION WITH YOU BECAUSE
YOU WRITE ABOUT SOME OF THE MOST FASCINATING PEOPLE IN HUMAN
HISTORY, BUT NOW YOU'RE WRITING ABOUT SOMEONE WHO IS STILL
ACTIVELY EXPLORING, ACTIVELY DISCOVERING.
HER NAME IS JENNIFER DOWDNA, AND WHAT SHE'S FAMOUS FOR, SHE'S ONE
OF THE DISCOVER REARS OF THE USE OF KRISPER, THE CODE BREAKER.
WHAT IS CRISPER.
>> A BACTERIA THAT'S BEEN USED TO FIGHT VIRUSES FOR A BILLION
YEARS.
THEY TAKE A MUG SHOT OF ANY VIRUS THAT ATTACKED OF A SNIPPET
OF ITS GENETIC CODE AND WRAP IT IN A CLUSTERED REPEATED SEQUENCE
KNOWN AS A CRISPER.
WHEN THEY SEE THE VIRUS AGAIN THEY USE THE ENZYME TO SHOP IT
UP.
WHAT JENNIFER DID AND THEY WON THE NOBEL PRIZE FOR IT IS TO
SAY, WOW, IF BACTERIA CAN DO THAT, WE CAN REPURPOSE IT SO
THAT WE CAN TARGET HUMAN GENES AND CUT GENES IN OUR OWN BODY.
SO IT BECAME A TOOL TO EDIT GENES.
>> Stephen: WELL, THE EXTRAORDINARY THING ABOUT THIS,
AS YOU SAID, IT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR, YOU KNOW, A BILLION YEARS,
BACTERIA HAS BEEN DOING THIS SORT OF THING.
WE'VE HAD THE CONCEPT OF DNA FOR A LONG TIME.
WE'VE HAD THE IDEA OF GENE EDITING AS A POSSIBLE MEDICAL
TREATMENT OR MANIPULATION OF OUR GENOME, BUT WE HAVEN'T HAD THE
TOOL.
NOW THAT THE TOOL IS HERE AND CAN BE SO PRECISE IN ITS
EDITING, ARE WE HEADING, IN YOUR OPINION, TOWARD A UTOPIA OR A
DYSTOPIA?
BECAUSE THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF SOMETHING NEW, ISN'T IT?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
IT'S WHY I WROTE THE BOOK BECAUSE I THINK IT'S UP TO US AS
A SOCIETY TO SAY, BOY, WE HAVE TO USE THIS FOR REALLY IMPORTANT
THINGS.
WE'VE ALREADY USED IT LAST YEAR TO CURE SOMEBODY OF SICKLE CELL
ANEMIA.
AND EASY GENE MUTATIONS LIKE M.D., CYSTIC FIBROSIS, THOSE ARE
THE THINGS WE SHOULD BE USING IT FOR.
NOW, OF COURSE, YOU CAN READ BRAVE NEW WORLD AND KNOW WE CAN
USE GENE EDITING IN THE FUTURE TO SAY, HEY, THE RICH PEOPLE CAN
BUY BETTER GENES FOR THEIR KIDS.
SO THAT'S WHERE I GET TO THE DYSTOPIA THAT I HOPE WE DON'T
EVER ENCOUNTER.
>> Stephen: WE GET BACK TO THE POSSIBLY DYSTOPIAS?
JUST A MOMENT, BUT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS USE OF THE
TREATMENT, IN THIS CASE FOR SICKLE CELL.
WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS I CAN UNDERSTAND USING CRISPER TO
ADJUST THE DNA IN A SINGLE CELL -- SAY A STEM CELL THAT HAS
A PHRASE I DON'T ENTIRELY URNS CALLED PLEURO POTENCY WHERE IT
CAN BECOME ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT CELLS IN OUR BODY.
THOSE ARE CHANGED WITH CRISPER, STEM CELLS ARE TAKEN OUT,
CHANGED, AND GO BACK INTO YOUR TO DO THE BUSINESS CRISPER HAS
TOLD IT TO DO.
HOW DOES IT PROPAGATE THROUGHOUT THE BODY?
WE'RE NOT INJECTING IT INTO EVERY CELL IN YOUR BODY.
HOW IS IT AFFECTING THE CHANGE FROM CELL TO CELL?
>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
IN MOST CASES, IT DOESN'T IF YOU'RE CURING SICKLE CELL, ALL
YOU HAVE TO DO IS GET THE STEM CELLS TO PRODUCE BLOOD CELLS
THAT ARE HEALTHY, AND YOU CAN DO IT IN THE EYE AND FIX THE CELLS
IN THE EYE IF YOU HAVE CONGENITAL BLINDNESS AND YOU CAN
NOW TARGET CANCER BECAUSE CANCER HAS A WAY OF FIGHTING OUR
IMMUNOTHERAPY SYSTEMS, OUR OWN IMMUNE SYSTEM, BUT YOU CAN TURN
THAT ABILITY IN THE CANCER CELLS OFF, SO THERE ARE MANY THINGS
YOU CAN DO.
IF YOU WANTED TO GET INTO EVERY CELL OF THE HUMAN BODY, THEN
YOU'VE GOT TO GO A STEP FURTHER, WHICH ALREADY HAS BEEN DONE, BUT
IT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE TUBOUS, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO EDIT EARLY
STAGE EMBRYOS OR REPRODUCTIVE CELLS SO THAT IT MULTIPLIES AND
BECOMES PART OF A WHOLE BODY, BUT, THAT WAY, IT IS ALSO
INHERITED BY ALL THE CHILDREN OF THE PEOPLE YOU EDIT AND ALL OF
THEIR DESCENDENTS.
SO WHAT YOU'VE DONE IS EDIT THE HUMAN RACE.
>> Stephen: MY UNDERSTANDING IS VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS ALREADY
INDICATED, YOU KNOW, SEMISERIOUSLY THAT CRISPER MIGHT
BE GOOD TO CREATE SUPERSOLDIERS.
>> ABSOLUTELY, YOU CAN MAKE SOLDIERS RESISTANT TO RADIATION
AND PUTIN SAID WE CAN MAKE THEM SO THEY'RE LESS SUSCEPTIBLE TO
FEAR OR THAT THEY HAVE LESS COMPASSION.
HE SAID THAT TO A YOUTH GROUP.
AND, SO, ONE OF THE BIG FUNDERS NOW OF THIS RESEARCH IS THE
DEFENSE DEPARTMENT.
DARPA, THE RESEARCH AGENCY THERE, HAS FURNISHED JENNIFER
DOWDEN'S LABS AND HARVARD AND M.I.T. TO CREATE ANTI-CRISPER,
PRETTY MUCH WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE, IS HOW DO YOU REVERSE IT IF SOME
ME NEF LENT ACTOR HAS DONE IT.
>> Stephen: WELL, YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT SO MANY PEOPLE WHO
ARE CONFIDENTLY DESCRIBED AS GENIUSES, WHAT IS THE
COMMONALITY BETWEEN EINSTEIN OR JENNIFER DOWDEN.
>> WHAT COUNTS IS BEING IMAGINATIVE AND CREATIVE.
TO ME, THERE'S ONE TRAIT THAT REALLY STANDS OUT FROM LEONARDO
Da VINCI ALL THE WAY TO JENNIFER DOWDEN AS A YOUNG KID
IN HAWAII, AND THAT'S JUST BASIC CURIOSITY, PURE CURIOSITY, AND
THAT YOU'RE DOING THESE THINGS FOR CURIOSITY'S SAKE.
THIS IS HOW BEAUTIFUL NATURE, IS WHICH SUBPOENA OUT OF CURIOSITY,
ALL THESE SCIENTISTS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S THIS WEIRDNESS
IN BACK TIER DWRA AND TURNS OUT TO BE USEFUL.
SO INSTEAD OF PURSUING THINGS BECAUSE THEY'RE USEFUL AND
THEY'LL GET YOU PATENTS OR PRIZES, IT'S BEST TO START OFF
BEING CURIOUS WONDERING WHY IS THE SKY BLUE OR LEAVES CURL WHEN
YOU TOUCH IT.
THOSE ARE THE THINGS, FROM STEVE JOBS, AND I MUST SAY, IT'S ONE
OF YOUR TRAITS, TOO, I LOVE IT ABOUT YOU, YOU'RE SO CURIOUS
ABOUT EVERYTHING, AND YOUR DIRTY LITTLE SECRET IS YOU'RE CURIOUS
ABOUT SCIENCE AS WELL.
I LOVE THAT.
>> Stephen: I DO BELIEVE DISCOVERY IS GREATER THAN
INVENTION, AND I ALWAYS LOVE TALKING TO YOU, WALTER.
THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANK YOU, STEPHEN.
>> Stephen: "THE CODE BREAKER" IS AVAILABLE NOW.
WALTER ISAACSON, EVERYBODY.
BACK WITH A PERFORMANCE BY SEBASTIAN YATRA AND GUAYNAA.
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