You are watching Local Edition. Thank you so much for joining us, I'm Brad
Pomerance. Our guest is Catherine Allgor, she is a professor of history at
the University of California, Riverside, I am so glad you're here 'cause
we're gonna talk about something that so many people are talking about,
on the cover of the national magazines and that's
the first lady! [Allgor] The first lady. [Pomerance] Right now it's Michelle Obama, let's go back
in history briefly and talk to us about kind of the quintessential first lady, the
one who set the pattern. [Allgor] Ah, that's Dolly Madison.
Now, I have to give Martha Washington some props, she worked hard at it as well,
but Dolly Madison, who was our first lady right at the beginning of the 19th
century, really set the pattern for all first ladies. [Pomerance] Really?
[Allagor] Yes. For one thing she took over the stewardship of the White House and
before her White House
there was no one single space where everyone in Washington,
including members of government, their families, the locals, could all get
together. And she became really famous for her parties. [Pomerance] Now, well, speaking of
parties, we often eat Dolly Madison cakes.
So talk to me about how those got her... became her namesake?
[Allgor] Brad, I grew up in Philadelphia, so I know Dolly Madison ice cream and cakes and pies.
Dolly Madison became so famous, not only in her lifetime, but
afterwards
that, and this is a whole separate area of study, and the nineteenth century the
twentieth century,
she was sort of seized upon as an image of the quintessential American woman.
So, there's Dolly Madison cakes, there's hairpins, soap, dolls, cigarettes, all kinds
of things. [Pomerance] Wow... lets fast forward to Michelle Obama.
and before we get to talk about her, I want to just
say one thing:
our first lady is Black.
[Allgor] Yes, she is. [Pomerance] That is a stunning development.
I mean, and it really hit me like Barrack Obama, okay we have a Black president, but have a Black
first lady! [Allgor] Yes.
[Pomerance] Talk to me about that. [Allgor] Just an amazing sort of moment in history and
of course, you and I are both younger than springtime, [Pomerance] Ha, ha.
[Allgor] but I'm not sure we ever would think about it.
And part of that has to do with the very sad history we have
around African-Americans in the United States. There's a sort of even sadder
chapter around Black women,
and stereotypes about them. And for Michelle Obama to be
so accomplished, so educated
so amazing, as a person, as a woman ,as a black woman it's like to gift. [Pomerance] And she has
become, for better or for worse, a fashion icon. [Allgor] Yes. [Pomerance] What do you make of that? I mean,
people talk about her arms. [Allgor] Yes. [Pomerance] Is that
subjugating her or what? [Allgor] Brad, this is where being an historian is a
great comfort. I have to say that the fascination with the bodies of the
rulers has a
long history
and it's fascinating.
So when George Washington became the first American president the republic
was brand new. Nobody was sure it was going to work. Everybody was terribly worried
about it and they fastened on his body.
On what he wore, how he stood, how he held himself. The same thing for Dolly Madison,
who was a slightly different generation, there was the War of 1812, again
people weren't certain what was going to happen, and they fastened themselves on this
idea of looking at her body. So, all I can say to Michelle Obama is that she is in
good company.
Now, I do have to say something about the fashion thing. [Pomerance] Yes. [Allgor] And I want you to feel
OK about looking at fashion as long as it's political. [Pomerance] OK. [Allgor] So if it's Lindsey
Lohan, you should be ashamed of yourself.
[Pomerance] Interesting.
[Allgor] In politics, fashion has everything to do with one of the functions of the
first lady, which is to be what I call the charismatic figure. That is a larger
than life figure for her husband's administration that imparts
emotional and psychological messages to the nation. [Pomerance] Was Jackie Kennedy the
first first lady who brought fashion into the first lady's office? [Allgor] I'm very
sorry to tell you
that it was Dolly Madison. [Pomerance] Oh it was, so she was? [Allgor] Yes. [Pomerance] Interesting. Why?
[Allgor] Because part of what was going on in early America, and Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy also played on this,
is we have this fascination with aristocracy.
and almost this need for it, to give ourselves a kind of sense of legitimacy
Dolly Madison dressed as a queen and so did Jackie, so it's going to be
interesting to see what Michelle does.
[Pomerance] We could talk forever and ever and ever. Come back. I'm so enjoying this conversation. [Allgor] I surely shall.
[Pomerance] Thanks so much Catherine. [Allgor] Thank you. [Pomerance] For Charter's Local Edition,
I'm Brad Pomerance.