Timothy Snyder.
-♪ ♪ -(cheering, applause)
-Welcome to the show. -So glad to be here.
You have written a book
about tyranny... now.
I don't understand why.
-Why would you do this now? -(laughter)
I can't think of one good reason.
Yeah. The reason is everything that we know about history,
and the reason is the best American tradition,
which is that when you're in a moment of peril like this one,
you look around for how other people have failed,
and you learn from them.
So that's what the Framers of our Constitution did.
But now we have 200 more years of failed democracy,
and 200 years of smart people we can learn from.
The book tries to get that across in about 20 minutes.
You know, I will say what I enjoy about the book is
it's tiny, it's easy to get through,
and it's super interesting.
You've got a lot of history in this field.
I mean, excuse the pun, but you've studied
the rise of fascism in the 1930s,
you know, you've published I think a dozen books or so.
If you were to look at the Trump administration,
not to be hyperbolic, but what similarities would you see
or would you say you see between, uh,
the rise of fascism in, you know...
pre-World War II Germany and in the U.S. right now?
Yeah. History's great, 'cause history's bracing.
On the one hand, it's bracing because it tells us
-how bad things can get. -Right.
So we're in the second globalization now.
The first globalization had opponents,
it had crises, it had contradictions,
like the First World War, the Second World War,
the Great Depression.
Hitler, Stalin.
On the other hand, Hitler is...
history is bracing 'cause it tells us what we can learn
and what we can do, that there are alternatives.
So, how are we like the 1930s?
-Globalization is being challenged. -Right.
That's similar. There are people coming
from the far right and saying globalization has a face--
maybe a Jewish face, maybe a dark face.
That's also similar.
Mr. Trump, in particular, in his rallies
and his habits of speech, is a bit like a fascist.
-There are things here we have to watch out for. -Mm-hmm.
But history also empowers.
It helps us to get out of these traps.
So we have to look at it first.
So if we're looking at history,
and we're looking at the core differences,
what-what are the differences?
Are the differences that...
Hitler knew when he was leaking information?
-(laughter) -Like, what would you say the core differences are
in terms of what America's dealing with now
versus any leader, not just Hitler, in the past?
So, there's a reason why I don't use Mr. Trump's name
in the book, which is that it's not really about Mr. Trump.
It's really about us.
History is there for us, it expands what we can see,
it expands what we can learn.
-Right. -So although it is really important
that Mr. Trump invites Russians to the Oval Office
with digital equipment at their side,
and then spills national security secrets. Right?
-Yes. -That's important.
-That is important. -Yeah. Right?
So I'm agreeing with your opening.
-Okay. -But it may be even more important
that the Germans and the Soviets and the other people
of the 20th century who saw democracy collapse
were just as smart as we are, or maybe smarter.
So it may be time for us to learn from them
what we can do to defend democracy.
-That's the book. -It's interesting that you say that,
'cause, I mean, like, some of these chapters
are really fascinating in what they say.
Like, for instance, chapter ten here is
"Believe in Truth," and you write,
"To abandon facts is to abandon freedom.
"If nothing is true, then no one can criticize power,
"because there is no basis upon which to do so.
"If nothing is true, then all is spectacle.
The biggest wallet pays for the most blinding lights."
That's a powerful statement to make.
Why is pos... post-truth so powerful?
Because-- back to your other question about fascism.
So, fascism says-- nothing's true,
your daily life is not important,
the facts that you think you understand are not important--
all that matters is the myth,
the myth of one nation that's together,
the myth of the mystical connection with the leader.
-Uh-huh. -When we think of post-truth,
we think it's something new,
we think it's something at campuses,
we think it's something irrelevant.
Actually, what post-truth does is it paves the way
for regime change.
If we don't have access to facts,
we can't trust each other.
Without trust, there's no law.
Without law, there's no democracy.
So if you want to rip the heart out of a democracy directly,
if you want to go right at it and kill it,
what you do is you go after facts.
And that's what modern authoritarians do.
Step one: you lie yourself, all the time.
Step two: you say it's your opponents
and the journalists who lie.
Step three: everyone looks around and says, "What is truth?
There is no truth." And then resistance is impossible,
-and the game's over. -Wow.
(applause)
You know, my favorite thing about the book,
other than the steps that are in it
and the stories you tell, is that it's tiny,
so you can keep it in your pocket,
and then, when the tyranny is chasing you,
you can be like, "Aah! What did he say again? Aah!"
Oh, you got one as well.
I like your style.
Thank you so much for being here.
On Tyranny is available now.
Timothy Snyder, everybody.