Preparing to defend against
a second gigantic attack,
even as they're already under assault
by Russia.
Ukrainian units held large scale drills
to prepare for bigger battles to come
The head of Ukraine's Joint Forces
Command tells me
we need to know what exactly
to prepare the forces for
and how they should be prepared, he says.
That's why this is so important.
We're in the Chernobyl exclusion zone,
site of the worst
nuclear disaster in history.
Ukraine's special forces
also practicing urban combat
in the abandoned buildings.
The U.S.
and its allies
believe the Russians
could mount a massive offensive
once the spring comes.
That's why the Ukrainians
are getting their forces ready,
even as they're already
fighting the Russians
on several fronts in this country.
The Ukrainians say that to win,
they need more modern Western weapons,
especially main battle tanks.
Yeah, just in terms of quality,
of course, there's a big difference,
the general says,
because the fire control
systems of Western equipment
are far superior to Russian weapons.
As the battles in places
like Bermuda in eastern
Ukraine remain
brutal and casualties mount.
Ukraine's leadership says it's grateful
for the massive military aid announced
at the wrong time meeting.
But Kiev is disappointed
Germany still hasn't
signed off on sending
Leppard to main battle tanks,
which would be key to help them
turn the tide.
A top presidential adviser tells me
about the new boot.
Our guys won't leave the battlefield,
even if they aren't
provided with new equipment, he says.
But more of them will die.
This must stop.
We want
our people to have a better chance
of saving their own lives.
The Ukrainians say
the new aid
announced Friday
will go a long way to help them
beat Russia back.
And the Halo padlock says he hopes
the U.S.
and its allies will keep weapons
flowing in the long run.
But it's a fluke.
But the most
I think our allies have the perfect
understanding of the price we're paying,
he says.
That it's very important
for Russia to lose.
They understand the nature of this war
the nature of Russia
and why it is impossible
to negotiate with them, not only
to receive
the Ukrainians say
they need
to grasp the initiative
before the Russians
can recover from their losses.
And they're gearing up for
what could be a brutal spring.
But, Jake,
the Ukrainians also say there is a whole
nother facet to this as well.
They say they're having
increasing problems
getting spare parts for their Soviet
era tanks and ammunition as well.
So on the one
hand, those modern Western tanks
would be for better capabilities.
But it's also about staying in the fight,
especially as that Russian offensive
looms Jake.
All right.
Fred Pleitgen in Kiev, Ukraine,
thanks so much.
Let's talk about this with William
Cohen, former Republican senator
from Maine and defense secretary
in the Clinton administration.
Secretary Cohen,
thanks so much for joining us.
To start with the tank standoff.
Germany's defense
minister says there are both good
and bad reasons
for giving Ukraine
the lever to tanks
that they're desperately asking for.
Why do you think Germany is
so hesitant here?
Well, I think part of it is
political
and certainly emotional on the part
of the the Germans.
We don't give Germany enough credit
for what they've been doing
and the amount
they're contributing,
both in materiel and equipment
and now money.
So I think
anyone who's trying to divide Germany
and separate
them out is being not a good ally.
They're wrong.
Germany is a great ally.
The problem is that they've got a history
and they have another issue,
not only their history,
but I don't think they want to be seen
as being the country
that's triggering any kind of escalation.
And if there's going to be an escalation,
they want
all of us to be involved in that.
And so I don't think it's unreasonable
for them to say we'll put our
our best main battle tank there,
but we want you to have yours
there as well.
Even though the capabilities
are quite different,
even though it doesn't
necessarily translate
into more effectiveness.
Symbolically, it's really important.
I hope that they're able to work
this out.
Secretary of Defense Austin has said
we're still working it
and I hope to do it
quickly because time is of the essence.
But I would say whatever it takes
to get the Leppard's there,
if it takes some Abrams ago,
I would say do it. So.
So if you are secretary of defense
right now, you would say
send two or three Abrams
tanks over there.
If that's what the German I mean,
if that's what the Germans need as cover,
even if I mean, they really need a lot.
It sounds like the Ukrainians are saying
we need dozens
if not hundreds of the leopard two,
which are more agile than the Abrams.
They're more agile.
They're more modern.
They use a fuel,
which is easily obtained and need the
the fuel from the Abrams
is basically jet fuel.
They have to have
you have a whole supply chain problem.
With the Abrams.
But I would say under the circumstances,
what they need are tanks.
And we can help
get the Germans to say, it's okay
if you're in it, we're in it.
I think that's the most important
thing, is saving Ukraine
from Russian
extermination as such with
what the Russians are doing.
They are engaged not only in
what they call de-Nazification
deep population of Ukraine.
They are annihilating
the people of Ukraine.
So anything we can do
to prevent more of that slaughter
from taking place, we ought to do it.
And if it's a question we're providing,
something is not that combat
effective under the circumstances.
Let's do it anyway
so we can get the Germans to to satisfy
their local political problems,
which are real,
and we ought to address them.
If Ukraine does not get these tanks
and the other heavy weaponry
that they're requesting,
long range missiles,
how do you see their fight
against the Russians
going forward in the next few months,
especially if there's a spring offensive?
Well, if
it's a war of attrition
at this particular point
and what the Russians are doing,
you're trying to
just destroy the will, obviously.
But the the means of survival
in terms of heat,
electricity, water, food, energy, etc..
So what they're trying to do
is wear down the Ukrainians.
And this is a war of attrition
then we have to give whatever
the Ukrainians need to take the battle
against the Russians
and to defeat them on the ground.
And the notion
that the Russians are saying, well,
if we lose on the ground
on a conventional basis,
we may use nuclear weapons.
Well, they've said that before.
And that's something
we have to be concerned about.
But you can't have Russia wrap itself
in a nuclear jacket
and threaten to blow itself up
in the rest of the world.
That's simply
not going to happen, in my opinion.
But we can't have the world
standing by
terrified that
they're putting on this vest
and saying we're going to blow
not only Ukraine up,
but much of the world.
Well, that's just it.
The Russian
minister of foreign affairs
issued the warning about the increase
supply of weapons
to the west, saying, quote,
We regard all this
as an open,
provocative incitement
by the West and an increase
in the stakes in the conflict,
which will inevitably lead to an increase
in casualties in a
and the dangerous escalation
Do you think there's
an actual red line here for Russia?
Because they've been saying
that sort of thing
from the very beginning.
And every time the U.S.
in the West gets incrementally involved,
every time they say,
well, that's the line, that's the line.
But do you think there's an actual line?
There may be.
And we can't, you know,
not take that into account.
But if we're going to allow the Russians
to say, if we don't win, the world loses.
And that's
what they're saying to us
and to the rest of Western democracies
and much of the world,
there are 54 countries in Rammstein
right now. That's more than needle.
That's a lot more than narrow, though.
The world is now
looking at this
in terms of the Russians
have engaged in an act,
a war crime
by invading a neutral country.
And now they're saying
if we don't
take possession of our little beauty
then we're going to blow the world up.
We can't accept that.
And we have to tell the Russians
there'll be
a terrible penalty
that you will pay the day.
You ever think about
using a nuclear weapon
in this battle or any other.
But we can't afford
to have an extortion being
waged against the United States saying
either you let us win or allow
all of these Ukrainian
to be slaughtered day after day,
or else we might
pull our nuclear button out and destroy
much of Europe and much of whether
India, China or the Middle East.
There's no end to it
once you start down the nuclear
path.
So I think we have to tell them
get out of Ukraine.
You violated the law
and you are causing world
economic problems
and you're putting us on a path of
open conflict.
With the rest of the world.
Now's the time to settle this.
And that would be get out of Ukraine.
And I think we have to take
give them give the Ukrainians
what they need
to defeat the Russians on the ground
and do it as quickly as we can.
Because the longer
this goes on, the longer
there's a war of attrition,
the Ukrainians end
up on the losing side of the.