JANE MCGONIGAL: Um, and now I think
we're going to do some Q&A.
AUDIENCE: Um, so from a teaching perspective,
how come kids who are gamers don't
seem to apply the sort of being OK with failure,
and exploring the system, and all of that in the classroom
setting?
And how can I make them do that?
JANE MCGONIGAL: Yeah.
I mean, there are a couple of reasons.
I mean, in classroom environments,
there tend to be more consequences for failure,
right?
I mean, even at the younger levels,
if you don't do well on something,
you will be perceived as not being good at that.
That could affect what group you're put in.
As you get older and you fail a test,
it counts towards your grades.
You don't get to retake it.
I know there are a lot of schools that are experimenting
with trying to create structures for failing that more
closely resemble games.
So schools where you can take a test as many times
as you want, the same way you would play a level
as many times as you want, to focus on mastery rather
than performance anxiety.
There's a chapter-- Chapter 4 in the book talks about,
though specifically, why do only some people seem
to bring the gameful mindset to everyday life?
And at least 41% of gamers do not
bring this to everyday life.
And it has to do with whether you view games
as being escapist or whether you view them as being
a part of your real life.
So we have this bias.
We talk about games as being escapist,
and you leave reality, and it helps you forget, you know,
everyday life.
And when people are playing games,
we tell them they're wasting time, right?
People who feel that way tend to play games
more when their life gets more stressful, because they see it
as this kind of coping mechanism,
the same way some people drink more
when their life gets stressful, or they eat junk food,
or they just-- and so then their problems get bigger.
And so then they have to play games more 'cause
they're more stressed out now.
And it creates this downward spiral,
and that's actually the number one predictor of, like,
who becomes addicted to games are people
who see games as escapist.
People who benefit and sort of the way out of that
seems to be people who focus when they play games
on how they're getting better.
So I play this game, I'm getting better
at spatial intelligence, or teamwork, or coordination,
or designing, or creativity, or whatever it is.
So the really practical answer to that question
is to talk to kids about the games they play and say,
what do you have to be good at to be good at this game?
Or to model back to them.
Wow, it took you four days to finish that level?
That sounds really hard.
You must be somebody who, when you have a goal,
you don't give up until you really succeed.
And start to help kids see that there are real character
strengths that are part of who they are,
not just when they're playing games.
They don't have to escape reality to have those feelings
or have those strengths.
So it's like a whole chapter about how
you do that in Chapter 4.
AUDIENCE: Excellent.
Thank you.
JANE MCGONIGAL: Yeah.
AUDIENCE: Oh, now I have the mic.
I've been talking about "SuperBetter" a lot
with a friend, because there was just
an article in the last "Psychology Today" about it.
And we thought it was cool, and we had this whole discussion
about what are our powerups and what are our bad guys.
And that was cool.
So my question is actually a question
from my friend, who says, please ask, I'm
curious as to how effectively people use "SuperBetter"
to deal with issues I might be concerned about,
like procrastination and mild anxiety,
rather than deeply debilitating depression, et cetera.
JANE MCGONIGAL: Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OK.
So I'm going to give it to you straight here.
This method seems to work better and better the more difficult
your challenge is.
So we crunched the numbers, and people who signed up to, like,
I want to lose 10 pounds, I want to run my first 5K,
I don't know, I'm just bored with my life, I want to change,
those people do not register a lot of benefits.
There's measurement tools inside the system where
we look at changes in things like courage,
and optimism, and things like that.
Those people don't register as many changes.
Whereas people who come with big problems, you
know-- I just lost a family member,
I've been diagnosed with something,
I have always suffered with anxiety,
they register the biggest changes.
I think that's important.
And there are lots of reasons that would make sense why.
I mentioned the idea of post-traumatic growth earlier.
As I explained in the book, the "SuperBetter" method,
at its heart, what it seems to do
is promote post-traumatic growth.
In order to have post-traumatic growth,
you have to have some kind of serious challenge or trauma.
Now, there is a version of post-traumatic growth
that does not require trauma.
It's called post-ecstatic growth.
So I also talk about that in the book.
But it still requires you to do something
that is extremely difficult-- so running a marathon, not
a 5K, a marathon.
Trying to maybe write your first book, starting a company,
becoming a parent for the first time.
So positive things, but that will really
force you to dig deep and cultivate
that new form of strength.
So the short version is it might help,
but it will make a bigger difference
in the lives of people who are really
struggling with something.
So one suggestion is, put it on your phone now
and hopefully you don't need it.
But maybe someday it will help you more.
AUDIENCE: I've tried to use games
as a way of developing particular cognitive styles,
and I've often found I'll start playing
a game with the intent of I'm going to be practicing
some cognitive skill or other.
And then I find an hour has passed,
and I notice I slipped totally into complacency,
and I wasn't practicing that cognitive style.
I wasn't trying the new strategy that I had intended to try.
How do I maintain the focus required
when playing games to make sure that I actually do use them
as that sort of practice, rather than idly passing the time?
JANE MCGONIGAL: Well, that's really interesting.
Because on one hand, I mean, I would
think, from what I've seen, that idly passing the time
is actually totally fine.
I mean, that it will do the same thing.
You don't have to adopt a particular style of gameplay
or strategy.
So we talked about playing a game you've never
played before will make that mindset happen faster
than playing a game you've played 100 times.
So maybe it'd be more a matter of making sure
that you're exposing yourself to different games,
different genres of games.
You know, if you've never played a certain genre,
to try to expand your competency with different kinds of games.
I would think that aspect of making sure that you're always
requiring yourself to be learning and improving
is probably the most important aspect of it.
But other than that, there's not a particular, you know.
Just make sure that it's really challenging for you,
and challenge yourself to learn different games is just
a really good way to do that.
Cool.
What else?
You guys pick.
AUDIENCE: Um, so you said we should
ask this question earlier.
What can go wrong with violent video games that doesn't--
JANE MCGONIGAL: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OK.
So all of the stuff they report in the media
is hype and not true except for if you
spend most of your time playing violent,
aggressive-themed games-- we'll use "Call of Duty"
as an example-- against people you
don't know online-- not in the same space-- the one
negative side effect of that is that it boosts
your testosterone in a way that does not happen
in other gameplay contexts.
It doesn't happen if you are playing against people
you know in real life.
So we don't have to be in the same room.
But if I know I'm playing you and we're cool,
I'm not going to get this sort of testosterone-jack.
There's a lot of research behind it that I explain in the book.
But for now, we'll just say you can get,
basically, testosterone poisoning,
is how one researcher describes it,
where after you're done playing, for hours afterwards
can make you just more hostile in your interaction
with other people, more aggressive, less
compassion and empathy, 'cause you're really
jacked up on testosterone, which just has that effect on people.
So, you know, that's why some game communities
may have a reputation for the kind of people
that become kind of jerks.
So I recommend that you spend less than half your time
doing that.
If you're going to play a lot of these games,
make sure you're spending a significant amount of time
playing them with people you know, that you have to continue
to have relationships with, because that's
what dampens the testosterone.
However, I'm a very open-minded person.
I think people should use games to benefit themselves however
they want.
There may be people who want to jack up some testosterone.
I'm going into a contract negotiation,
and I do want to be aggressive.
Or you may want that.
So I am not to judge.
There may be benefits to it as well, but that is the genre.
So thanks for coming back to that.
AUDIENCE: I'm curious if you've investigated
a relationship between your work on PTSD and other work,
like van der Kolk's "The Body Keeps the Score,"
ideas of trauma being stored somatically, physically.
JANE MCGONIGAL: No, I'm not familiar with that,
but the name is very evocative.
"Your Body Keeps the Score"?
AUDIENCE: Yeah, that was a new book,
"The Body Keeps the Score."
JANE MCGONIGAL: I'm going to buy that. [LAUGHING] That's great.
Thank you for that.
AUDIENCE: So I was kind of curious about the reference
to motor neurons, knowing some of that.
It's pretty controversial, A. And it only
applies to sort of where motor activity's involved.
I'm kind of curious, not knowing anything about the gaming
world, I'm people-watching these videos screens
of other people playing.
How much of that is, like, actual, physical activity
that their motor neurons can actually
relate to versus intellectual, like if it's
Scrabble or some boring thing?
I can look at golf, and I'm always turned off.
JANE MCGONIGAL: Yeah.
I mean, I would contest the idea that it's
just-- I know there are discussions now going on
about this sort of-- what is that?
The hype cycle, the hype chart?
It went into the trough of disillusionment.
But you do absolutely still see mirror neurons even in things,
you know, conversations.
If we're close friends and you're telling me
about your day, we do see that my brain will, as you tell me
your story, start to mirror the experience is
if it happened to me.
And I don't know that that necessarily-- I mean,
you see the same kind of emotional activation.
I feel like there's a sufficient body of literature
that there is a general processing of experience that
can be mirrored.
That's where I come down on it.
It's just sort of the-- people are arguing about it.
You know, there is a strong physical component,
I mean, in the same way that speed typing has a component.
You have to be able to input decisions
and execute decisions very quickly through the interface.
It could be possible to be part of.
I mean, you think about the piano example.
I mean, that is probably similar,
playing the piano, and the controls of a video game.
You still have to be mirroring the musicality.
I mean, you have to have the understanding
of the musicality, and not just the execution of the interface.
But--
So we have time for one more, maybe.
MALE SPEAKER: Sure.
JANE MCGONIGAL: Yeah.
AUDIENCE: So sometimes when you're
achieving a goal in a video game,
it feels really frustrating.
So is there a value, positive or negative, in the frustration,
or is there only a value in achieving the goal?
JANE MCGONIGAL: Oh, no.
No, no, no.
Most of the value is in the frustration.
I mean, it is.
The value is in staying motivated and optimistic while
being frustrated.
So when we were looking at that--
what is the mindset of a super-powered,
hopeful, individual?
That is somebody who's highly motivated, and optimistic,
and able to learn, and try, and be flexible, and try
different strategies, so that in the face of frustration,
they will continue to engage with the obstacle.
It's why I like to play games myself
that are very challenging.
I love it when I have to try a level 100 times before I
get past it.
That's where a lot of the resilience that
seems to be one of the most essential-- what do games
make us good at?
Being resilient in the face of that kind of frustration.
So yeah.
Don't play games that you're good at and always winning.
That's just positive emotion.
But the actual positive psychology,
the strengths will come out of playing games
that you are bad at, which is why we played a game that you
guys would-- you guys, you're surprisingly
good at massive and multi-player Scrabble, though.
It was good.
Good.
Well, good to meet you.
Thank you.
[APPLAUSE]