[ APPLAUSE ] >>> WE’RE TALKING TODAY WITH
DEREK BLACK, WHO WAS RAISED BY
PROMINENT WHITE NATIONALISTS AND
WAS POISED TO BE THE NEXT LEADER
OF THE MOVEMENT.
AT AGE 19, HE WON AN ELECTION
FOR A COMMITTEE SEAT IN PALM
BEACH BUT DECLINED TO SIGN A
LOYALTY OATH AND WENT OFF TO
COLLEGE.
COLLEGE. YOUR GODFATHER IS DAVID DUKE.
HE’S OVER AT YOUR HOUSE.
YOUR DAD AT ONE POINT WAS THE
LEADER OF THE KLAN.
WHAT WAS THE DISCUSSION LIKE?
YOU SAY, IT WASN’T ABOUT HATE.
WHAT WE KNOW FROM OTHER
KLANSMEN, IS THAT THE "N" WORD
IS FREELY THROWN ABOUT.
AND THAT’S THE KIND OF TALK.
>> NO.
>> NO. MY FAMILY NEVER USED RACIAL
DEROGATORY LANGUAGE.
DEROGATORY LANGUAGE. DIDN’T USE CURSE WORDS.
>> YOU NEVER HEARD YOUR DAD SAY
THE "N" WORD AND HE WAS THE HEAD
OF THE CLAN?
>> NO
>> NO KLAN?
KLAN? >> NO.
>> NO. >> YOU NEVER HEARD DAVID DUKE
SAY IT?
SAY IT? >> NO.
>> NO. THEY WANT TO RECRUIT NORMAL
PEOPLE.
PEOPLE. THEY DON’T WANT EXTREME, CRAZY
PEOPLE.
PEOPLE. THEY WANT NORMAL, WHITE
AMERICANS TO AGREE WITH THEM.
THE WAY TO DO THAT IS TO BE
POLISHED AND PROFESSIONAL AND
NOT BE CRUDE.
>> HOW DO THEY GET NORMAL PEOPLE
TO COME OVER?
>> I THINK YOU’D BE SURPRISED.
THE WHITE NATIONALIST MOVEMENT
IS NOT A BIG THING.
BUT IT’S A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT
ARE QUITE NORMAL.
I WENT ON A ROAD TRIP AFTER THAT
ELECTION.
ELECTION. AND I WOULD COLD CALL PEOPLE OF
STORMFRONT AND SAY, CAN I VISIT,
I’M COMING TO TOWN.
AND THEY’RE PEOPLE WITH 9:00 TO
5:00 JOBS.
5:00 JOBS. THEY HAVE EVERY PROFESSION YOU
CAN THINK OF, A LAWYER, A BANKER
OR A COP.
OR A COP. EVERY AREA OF SOCIETY AND
SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS.
SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS. IT’S NOT THE STEREOTYPE.
>> IF YOU BUMPED INTO SOMEBODY
ON THE STREET AND TRYING TO
FIGURE OUT IF THEY WERE A WHITE
NATIONALIST, WHAT WOULD YOU ASK
THEM?
THEM? >> I WOULD ASK THEM, DO YOU
THINK ALL OF THIS IMMIGRATION
INTO AMERICA IS MAKING IT WORSE?
DO YOU THINK THAT EUROPEAN
IMMIGRANTS ARE BETTER THAN OTHER
IMMIGRANTS?
IMMIGRANTS? DO YOU THINK THAT POLITICAL
CORRECTNESS IS JUST MAKING
PEOPLE NOT BE ABLE TO SAY TRUE
STUFF?
STUFF? IF THEY AGREE WITH THAT STUFF,
THEY AGREE WITH 90% OF WHAT
WHITE NATIONALISTS THINK.
>> WOW.
>> WOW. THERE HAD TO BE A CODE FOR YOU
TO FIND ONE ANOTHER.
HOW BIG WOULD YOU SAY THE
MOVEMENT IS?
MOVEMENT IS? >> IT’S HARD TO SAY.
I THINK LIKE 300,000 MEMBERS ON
STORMFRONT.
STORMFRONT. >> 300,000 ON STORMFRONT.
>> IT’S HARD TO ASSESS HOW MANY
PEOPLE.
PEOPLE. NOT TOO RECENTLY, PEOPLE DON’T
WANT TO COME OUT PUBLICLY.
>> THAT’S WHY YOU GOT BOOTED OUT
OF THE REPUBLICAN SEAT YOU WON.
IN COLLEGE, YOU’RE WALKING
AROUND WITH THIS SECRET THAT
GETS UNEARTHED.
GETS UNEARTHED. WHAT WAS THE AHA MOMENT FOR YOU?
>> THAT --
>> YOU WERE LIKE --
>> THAT WHITE NATIONALISM WAS
QUESTIONABLE?
QUESTIONABLE? >> YOU BEGAN TO QUESTION YOUR
BELIEFS.
BELIEFS. >> I DON’T KNOW IF THERE WAS
ONE.
ONE. IT WAS TWO OR THREE YEARS OF
LITTLE PIECES.
LITTLE PIECES. A LOT OF THOSE TIMES, I THOUGHT
I WAS BECOMING A BETTER WHITE
NATIONALIST BECAUSE I WAS HAVING
DISCUSSIONS ABOUT WHAT PART OF
OUR BELIEFS DON’T HOLD UP TO THE
EVIDENCE.
EVIDENCE. >> YOU’RE VERY FACT-BASED.
>> AND ONE PARTICULAR THING, THE
WAY WE’RE USING I.Q. STATISTICS
IS NOT -- WE’RE ABUSING THEM AND
MISUSING STATISTICS.
MISUSING STATISTICS. I DON’T WANT TO USE THAT AS
EVIDENCE.
EVIDENCE. ONE THING AT A TIME LIKE THAT,
DOES NOT UNDERMINE YOUR WHOLE
WORLD VIEW.
WORLD VIEW. >> I SHOULD CLARIFY.
THE RACIST BELIEFS ARE NOT
FACT-BASED.
FACT-BASED. YOU ARE ATTRACTED TO DATA IS
WHAT I MEANT TO SAY.
AND DATA IS HOW YOUR FRIENDS
WOULD LURE YOU OUT OF THESE
BELIEFS.
BELIEFS. >> YEAH.
>> YEAH. WHITE NATIONALISTS USE THINGS IN
A FACTUAL WAY.
THEY BREAK DOWN CRIME AND I.Q.
STATISTICS AND SAY, HERE’S THE
FACT IF
FACT IF FACTS.
FACTS. IT SOUNDS SCIENTIFIC AND
PROFESSIONAL.
PROFESSIONAL. >> YOUR FRENLTDS SFRIENDS USED T
WORLD’S ADVANTAGE TO TRY TO
APPEAL TO YOUR INTELLIGENCE TO
GET YOU AWAY FROM THE BELIEFS
YOU HAD BEEN INDOCTRINATED WITH.
COMING UP AFTER THE BREAK, THE
GUY WHO STARTED IT ALL IS HERE,
[ APPLAUSE ] >>> WE’RE TALKING WITH FORMER
WHITE NATIONALIST, DEREK BLACK.
HIS COLLEGE FRIEND, MATTHEW
STEVENSON, IS HERE, AS WELL, AND
AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK ABOUT
DEREK’S AWAKENING IS HERE WITH
US, AS WELL.
ELI SASLOW.
ELI SASLOW. WELCOME, AS WELL.
YOU’RE A WHITE NATIONALIST BUT
YOU ALSO KNOW IT’S SOMETHING
THAT PEOPLE AREN’T GOING TO
RESPOND WELL TO.
YOU HAVE A RADIO SHOW.
PEOPLE CATCH ONLY.
YOU WERE FRIENDS WITH HIM,
MATTHEW, RIGHT?
MATTHEW, RIGHT? >> I KNEW HIM VAGUELY.
WE WEREN’T CLOSE BUT WE HAD HUNG
OUT A COUPLE OF TIMES.
>> I WOULD VENTURE TO SAY, MOST
PEOPLE, NEVER MIND JEWISH MEN,
AND JUDAISM IS A TARGET OF WHITE
NATIONALISTS, WOULD HAVE RUN IN
THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.
YOU DID THE OPPOSITE.
TELL US WHY AND WHAT?
>> SINCE I HAD JOINED THE
SCHOOL, I WAS HOLDING SHABBAT
DINNERS IN MY DORMROOM.
AND WHEN THIS NEWS BROKE ABOUT
HIS BELIEFS, I DECIDED TO INVITE
HIM TO JOIN ME FOR THE SHABBAT
DINNERS.
DINNERS. THE REASON WAS TWO-FOLD.
ACCORDING TO THE KABBALAH,
EVERYONE IS CREATED IN THE IMAGE
OF THE CREATOR.
AND REGARDLESS OF BELIEFS I HAVE
NO RIGHT TO TREAT THEM WITHOUT
DIGNITY
DIGNITY DIGNITY.
DIGNITY. AND MY MOM WAS IN AA.
I FELT THAT PEOPLE WOULD
TRANSFORM AND REDEEM THEMSELVES,
OUT OF VERY DARK PLACES.
>> YOU DIDN’T HIT HIM ON THE
HEAD WITH ALL OF THE STATS.
HE’S ATTRACTED TO DATA.
>> YES.
>> YES. >> IT WAS MORE A SLOW BOIL OF
WHAT?
WHAT? >> SO, I MEAN, FIRST OF ALL, I
HADN’T SPENT MY LIFE ATTACKING
WHITE NATIONALISM, STATISTICS
AND SO ON.
IF I AMBUSHED HIM, HE WOULD HAVE
PUT UP HIS DEFENSES, LEFT AND
NEVER COME BACK.
I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE MORE
PRODUCTIVE TO CREATE HUMAN
BONDS.
BONDS. I DID NOT DISCUSS THE TOPIC WITH
HIM.
HIM. I TALKED ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE
UNDER THE SUN BUT NOT WHITE
NATIONALISM.
NATIONALISM. >> YOU’RE STARTING TO FEEL WHAT?
>> I AM STARTING TO FEEL
SURPRISED.
SURPRISED. HAVING AN AMBUSH AND A DEBATE
WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE
COMFORTABLE, THAN REALIZING I
HAD AN ANTI-SEMITIC BELIEF
SYSTEM.
SYSTEM. AND I LIKE MATTHEW AND HIS
DINNERS ARE GREAT.
>> THAT’S INTERESTING.
YOU WOULD HAVE PREFERRED THE
DEBATE AND BEEN MORE COMFORTABLE
THERE.
THERE. BUT KINDNESS AND LOVE WAS
SURPRISING.
SURPRISING. YOU WIND UP WRITING A PUBLIC
LETTER TO THE SOUTHERN POVERTY
LAW CENTER, A COUPLE YEARS AFTER
GOING TO DINNERS AND SO ON.
WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO SAY?
>> I WAS TRYING TO SAY THAT
BEING SILENT WASN’T A CHOICE.
I HAD GONE THROUGH THAT
EXPERIENCE AND REALIZED THAT
WHITE NATIONALISM IS FACTUAL
WRONG AND IT’S ACTUALLY HURTING
PEOPLE.
PEOPLE. I CAN’T QUIETLY SAY ANYTHING
AGAIN.
AGAIN. I NEED TO EXPLAIN THAT IT’S
WRONG.
WRONG. THAT WAS THE POINT.
>> A COUPLE OF YEARS LATER, YOU
SAY YOU SAW TRUMP COME DOWN THE
ELEVATOR AND SAID MEXICO IS NOT
SPENDING THEIR BEST PEOPLE,
THEY’RE SENDING RAPISTS AND SO
ON.
ON. AND YOU CALLED ELI, WHO HAD BEEN
PURSUING YOU FOR YOUR STORY FOR
A WHILE.
A WHILE. >> A LOT OF JOURNALISTS HAD.
THERE WERE THE YEARS I WAS
TRYING TO BE QUIET.
>> WHY WOULD THAT THE MOMENT?
>> BECAUSE I HAD ALWAYS THOUGHT
THAT WHITE NATIONALISM WAS DYING
AWAY AND EVERYBODY WAS OLD AND
THERE WAS NO FUTURE TO IT.
AND I JUST WANTED TO PUT IT
BEHIND ME.
BEHIND ME. AND I REALIZE THAT THE STUFF
THAT THEY SAY HAS A LOT OF
POTENTIAL AND A LOT OF PEOPLE
HAVE A LOT OF UNCHALLENGED
ASSUMPTIONS THAT WORK WITHIN
THAT BELIEF SYSTEM.
>> YOU NEEDED TO BE MORE VOCAL.
>> BEING SILENT IS A CHOICE.
THE OMNLY WAY YOU’RE GOING TO
CHALLENGE THAT IS NOT SHRUGGING
YOUR SHOULDERS.
YOUR SHOULDERS. YOU HAVE TO ACTIVELY WORKING
AGAINST THIS.
AGAINST THIS. >> YOU’VE WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT
THIS.
THIS. WHAT DOES DEREK’S STORY TELL US
ABOUT THE STATE OF OUR COUNTRY
RIGHT NOW?
RIGHT NOW? >> UNFORTUNATELY, THE POWER OF
THIS IDEOLOGY IS HUGE.
UNFORTUNATELY, THESE AREN’T
BELIEFS HELD BY A SMALL NUMBER
OF EXTREMISTS.
OF EXTREMISTS. POLLS SHOW THAT 30% OR 40% OF
WHITE AMERICANS IN THIS COUNTRY,
BELIEVE THEY EXPERIENCE MORE
PREJUDICE THAN PEOPLE OF COLOR.
THAT’S TOTALLY WRONG.
BY PLAYING TO THAT SENSE OF
GRIEVANCE, THERE’S REAL POWER IN
THIS IDEOLOGY.
THIS IDEOLOGY. AND WE’VE SEEN THAT IN POSITIONS
OF POWER IN THE COUNTRY.
IT TOOK A TON OF COVERAGE AND
SUSTAINED ACTIVISM, FOR PEOPLE
IN THE CIVIL SYSTEM, OUTREACH
AND DEBATE TO BRING SOMEBODY TO
THE OTHER SIDE.
>> DEREK, YOU’RE STILL IN TOUCH
WITH YOUR FAMILY BUT NOT THEIR
BELIEF SYSTEM.
BELIEF SYSTEM. >> IT’S TENSE.
WE TRY TO STAY IN TOUCH.
>> YOU LOVE YOUR PARENTS.
>> THAT WASN’T ALWAYS OBVIOUS WE
WOULD BE ABLE TO KEEP TALKING.
THAT WASN’T AN OBVIOUS OUTCOME.
THAT WAS A LOT OF WORK ON THEIR
PART TO MAKE THAT DECISION THAT
IT’S WORTHWHILE BEING A FAMILY,
EVEN IF THERE’S A HUGE GULF.
>> WHAT ARE YOU DOING NOW?
WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH
THE REST OF YOUR LIFE?
>> I AM A GRADUATE STUDENT.
I FINISHED GRADUATE HISTORY.
THAT’S IMPORTANT.
THAT’S IMPORTANT. HOW I’M GOING TO DO THAT, I
DON’T KNOW.
DON’T KNOW. >> THANK YOU FOR TELLING YOUR