I understand and agree with all your thoughts and principles however however
I interpret your concepts for leaders leading men or mostly driven or other
leaders who have a desire to make themselves better and maintaining the
status yep so common misperception right is that you know the military and the
seals I say this all time everyone thinks that the military in the seals I
think that we're leading terminator robots right and everyone is just driven
and they're gonna get up they're gonna do everything and it's I just talked
about this on the last podcast it is a bell curve it is a bell curve and
there's a great bunch of guys at the top of the bell curve that are go-getters
there's a solid bunch of guys in the middle and there's the low of guys that
are bums and so this interpretation that the concepts that I talked about are
just for leading these front running a personalities that just make everything
happen mmm not correct you know there are seals that don't want to work there
are seals that want to take shortcuts there are seals that want to skate by
then you get outside then you're working with Iraqi soldiers that are unmotivated
untrained poorly equipped we got to work with these guys we got bosses I mean I
got bosses and the SEAL Teams that are either an egomaniac or that are ultra
risk-averse you could have any of this stuff going on you can have your guys
that are risk averse you can have guys that are too crazy you got all you know
what they are they're humans they're individuals they're human beings and
because they're human beings even in Special Operations and sometimes
especially in Special Operations because when you get in Special Operations you
guys that have huge egos and in attitudes and so oh you think that they
just want to do whatever you tell them to do no they got their own idea they
either got their own method they got their own plan they got their own what
they think they're a tactical genius so you got to get around that so what does
it mean it means you have to lead them and it's the common theme that I'm
talking about all time it was I mean you got to build relationships you got to
build the trust you got them make sure they understand why they're
doing what they're doing you got to make sure they understand the strategic
impact you got to empower them you got to set a
good example you got to listen to them you got to take input you got to give
them responsibility and when I say responsibility I mean real
responsibility you got to build them up you got to make them better you gotta
show them and let them see not in a not in a in your face way but you gotta
subtly let them see what self-improvement means them and how they
can better the position and what drive will get them you got to give them
ownership of stuff and you gotta let that ownership grow into extreme
ownership where they really want to own things you got to teach him to lead and
you got to put them in leadership positions and you got to show your trust
by actually following them sometimes and again people ask me these questions you
know I'm a new leader how do I lead I got a new person how do I lead them it's
the same answers it's the same answers all the time the principles of
leadership now the nuances are there yes the
nuances are there and I have to nuance for echo that I got a nuance for this
guy over here and I got a nuance for this group over here the the nuances are
there but the basic principles are the same am I never am I gonna Who am I
gonna be in charge of that I'm not gonna try and build a relationship of trust
with him ooh who's that dance there's nobody you know who is it that I don't
want to set a good example for the answer is nobody
who is it that I'm not gonna listen to if you don't listen to people you
alienate them you don't want to be part of the team I mean it's if the things
are universal mmm and again there's nuances because you might have to make
adaptations and you know when we when we did battle leadership with with adolf
von shell and he talks about distinctly these three different types of
commanders and how the the boss gave them each their own little adjusted
order because he was dealing with their personalities so yes you got to deal
with the personalities but that doesn't mean you're doing something different
from the principles mm-hmm so when you get sure when you get to the
bottom of the bell curve and you might see some people that might need to be
replaced they might need to be removed but I'll tell you what most likely they
just need to be led hmm the reason that or I think one of the reasons why the
perception is that all your guys are robots and you know you I'm gonna give
you an order they follow it no questions eyes it's like movies right like a few
good men remembered Jack Nicholson he's like people follow orders or people die
yeah that's the thing that kind of stuff yeah and but they do they do capture in
some Hollywood movies where they show how mutinies take place and how things
go wrong and how you know the new lieutenant Vietnam is gonna get fragged
by his own people that stuff's real yeah you know that's
that's real so it's just it's it's a misperception the other the other
misperception is because of boot camp a lot of military movies are they show on
they show a significant amount of time in boot camp but boot camp is a matter
of weeks in a career you know I think Marine Corps boot camp is 13 weeks I
think the army boot camp is 10 weeks boot camp is a very short period of time
in your four-year six-year eight-year 10-year 20-year career boot camp is you
know I talked about the indoctrination all times in the military they have very
short periods of time compared to your whole career in in boot camp when your
drill instructor says drop down and do push-ups you drop down to push-ups okay
and boot camp when your Dro instructor says pick up that you know make your bed
you make your bed when these and if you don't they yell at you and they yell at
you until you do make your bed so people get that idea that that's the way the
military's run yeah yeah and that is like you know a great examples
full-metal-jacket the movie which is a great movie but the boot camp scene is
half the movie but in reality even if you were a guy in in Vietnam you know
boot camp is 13 weeks and then you went on to into Vietnam for a year so it's a
fraction of what your real career is like and and so people get that
impression that you're just gonna be able to borrow
quarters never was gonna listen you it just doesn't work that way yeah and
there's actually there's a great there's a great video
it's called Charlie Company and V anyways I forget the name of the video
but it's about a company in Vietnam Charlie Company and maybe if you remind
me I'll put it on the on the website it shows two company commanders but anyways
to make a long story short these guys they don't like their new company
commander and at first they're resistant to him and you know he says listen these
guys gotta learn that there's gonna have to do what I tell him and then it fast
forwards a couple months and they interview him again he goes you know
how's everything going he goes you know they get it now and they realize that
they just had to listen to me and do what I told them and then they go out in
the field with the guys and the guys in the field they're supposed to be doing
things they're just not doing them mmm they're just they're literally calling
back like yeah where did we did yeah we did a patrol you know they didn't do it
yeah we moved positions they didn't move positions yeah we're gonna do another
you know another foot patrol tonight they're not doing it so he was under the
impression that everyone had like buckled to his will they were just
completely snowing him and he had no idea so that's what happens in the
military if you're don't lead to your people and you just order them around
and you think that everyone's just this this this how they described it here men
who are mostly driven or leaders who have a desire to make themselves better
I mean if anybody in a position with guys like that it's gonna the leadership
job is gonna be very easy you just tell them what to do and they do it I mean I
could give you example upon example upon example of stuff and the SEAL Teams
where what I had to do to get people convinced that this was the right thing
to do you know I mean it is like you know a classic example is telling guys
okay we're gonna take Iraqi soldiers on every operation you know so these guys
were saying are you kidding me well the they didn't go hey cool Jocko we'll do
exactly what you tell us right no they look what are you talking about I'm
taking these guys out why would we do that it's gonna be risky these guys
aren't swarthy they don't they're not trained
then a million reasons why not to do that
mmm but how do you get her to do it you explain to them why you explain to them
the strategic importance you have built trust with them you tell them that
they're gonna take ownership of their Rockies I mean it's everything that I
just said that's what you do that's a classic example
so yes once again you have if you're at a leadership position you have to lead
you've seen the movie Saving Private Ryan yes yeah there was a part and then
when that movie that that they weren't down for the orders remember that way it
was kind of like a little pivotal part where they were gonna go take a gun nest
and they're like man we don't have to do this so they all kind of got together
and a you know seems like unnecessary risk and he's like he kind of tripped
out a little bit and kind of forced them to do it and they were like all right
whatever kind of reluctantly then one of the guys died and stuff but anyway
that's an example yeah he's worth it you know and especially you know you when we
were just doing talking about World War one that one portion of the book where
he says you know what we got order to do this thing I didn't feel good about it
but it was an order we were going to do it
so there's examples from the past especially where you know it's
definitely was more like that in the past in World War one obviously it was
like that obviously was like that unfortunately it was like that yeah
because it caused people to continue you know to execute these operations that
we're just gonna get people killed and you know actually life and I were
talking about that last week Pickett's Charge get it Pickett's charge
Gettysburg they sent the troops up and they got slaughtered and they came you
know their survivors came back in Lee was you know basically in tears like hey
I'm sorry this happened I knew this was my fault he took ownership of it and I
hope I'm getting the story right but but that's the that's the general the
general gist of the story but then they you know the big story was that the guys
were like hey we'll go again hmm if you know cuz you're such a great
leader we'll go again and Lafe you know what's kind of likely that's what World
War you know that's what that's what happened that shows you that guys were
willing and I said yeah but the difference is in World War one
they sent them again they sent him over and over you know Lee was regretting and
I'm sorry and I did something I got you know a bunch of guys killed it's
horrible and World War one they're like yeah it happened going again yeah oh
yeah and that happens again we're doing it again and again and again and it's
just a I'll always just be horrified by that and hopefully man progresses beyond
that and again part of that is as a person you have to question you have to
be a rebel you have to question what people are telling you and why they're
telling it to you if my boss doesn't tell me why I'm doing my operation
it's and I could continue to execute it that's my fault
I need to raise my hand and say boss what are we doing why are we doing this
I don't understand you got to take that initiative because if you're just
blindly following orders I don't want somebody that's blindly following orders
I never want people that blindly follow my orders
I want people that say oh get boss wait why are we doing this why is this
happening cuz I want people I won't think I want leaders underneath me that
know how to lead mm-hmm and you know what when you build the trust and you
build the relationships those guys will do anything for you and my guys might
ask me to do anything I mean I know it they did over and over again
did operations that were crazy and hard and dangerous and risky never did anyone
say odd you know we're not doing this is it okay we understand what's the mission
alright so you've got to build that rule it's against the same basic principles
of leading human beings and that's what you got to do but to think that you're
just gonna order people to do things it's not happening long answer to a to a
good question that was actually interesting perspective and I know it's
a perspective that a lot of people have people always think well you know
you led seals and they're alien so that was easy
yeah but before you said no before you told me that's kind of what I figured
yeah