>>Dan Ariely: Okay, Kevin.
So, I guess the first question is why?
[ Laughter ] >>Kevin Richardson: Have you got about two
days?
It actually started when I was a little kid.
I had a fascination for nature.
And as I got older, the animals just got bigger and bigger.
And what actually started out as pretty much self-indulgence when it came to lions -- because
I met these two little lion cubs at a safari park and I fell in love with them.
I thought to myself, I just can't wait for this lion to get to an age where I can actually
embrace him and put my head in his big, fat, fluffy mane.
But soon after the relationship started with these two guys --
>>Dan Ariely: Really, that's what you said?
I can't wait for them to grow up so I can --
>>Kevin Richardson: Yep.
It was all about me, and it was about getting a picture with this big lion and it would
be fantastic to show all my friends.
You know, it was really about that.
Soon after meeting them and actually getting to know lions in a way that most others don't
ever get the opportunity to do, I realized that there was so much more to it.
And it wasn't just about my self-indulgence.
I realized that lions were actually facing a predicament and that a hundred years ago
we had 450,000 lions roaming in Africa.
And to date, that number has dropped down to 20,000.
So as I was doing all these crazy things with lions, so my recognition was advancing and
people were starting to take notice.
And I realized that there was a lot that I could do.
>>Dan Ariely: So there is obviously the problem of conservation of lions.
How much of your interest in this is connected to the danger.
Let's see they had no teeth and no claws.
They were just like -- I don't know.
What else could be?
They were just friendly to everybody.
Would it be as attractive for you as the danger?
>>Kevin Richardson: I suppose -- that's a good question because if there weren't these
animals that had the potential to kill you, would I be as fascinated with them?
Would everyone be as fascinated with them?
And I think that is the question because why do people want to hunt them?
They are classified as one of the big five.
And for those of you who don't know why they are called the big five, it is because they
are the most dangerous animals to hunt in Africa.
So maybe they wouldn't be -- they wouldn't be in this situation that they're in, if they
didn't have these big teeth and these big claws.
>>Dan Ariely: But we talk about your psychology.
>>Kevin Richardson: See, I was trying to avoid that.
>>Dan Ariely: You did a good job.
>>Kevin Richardson: These are a fascination, again since a kid, with things that are potentially
dangerous like spotted hyenas that's in the background there.
So, yes, there is this fascination.
And I suppose it's something that has intrigued me about them.
>>Dan Ariely: Are you still afraid when you are dealing with them, or are you now looking
for more frightening things?
[ Laughter ] >>Kevin Richardson: No, I think lions are
quite enough.
Actually, over the years, it is -- I use the analogy it's like a pilot just getting his
license.
He is at his most dangerous when he gets that license.
And then as he accumulates hours of flying, he gains experience.
You basically start with a bucket empty of experience and a bucket full of luck and you
better hope that when the one runs out, the other's full.
It is really much is like that with lions.
All of my close calls were really when I was young and naive and thought I could conquer
the world, so early on in my career of working with lions.
But as I've worked with them well over 16 years and I'm still around and I haven't been
eaten, people start to, you know, say, well, maybe he does know something about these animals.
>>Dan Ariely: What was some of your close calls?
>>Kevin Richardson: I was attacked by a male lion quite early on.
I had known these two cubs, and I had raised them.
And I felt sorry for this particular lion because he had come from a facility where
he had -- he was kept as a pet and he was declawed.
This is a phenomenon that happens still to this day where people want to have this relationship
with these animals so they defang them or they declaw them.
And I felt sorry for him because he had been showered with this love as a youngster.
And then when he got too big, he had been declawed and then he was still dangerous.
And so he got tossed aside like a used oil rag.
He ended up at our park.
And so I used to interact with him through the fence because I thought he had this human
connection and eventually convinced myself that I could communicate with him.
And I went in with him.
And I got away with it for months on end until my nephew's 8th birthday party at the park
where he wanted me to go in with this lion.
And I had made some rules about -- to myself about how I would interact with him.
And on this particular day, he wouldn't come up to the fence.
And so I decided to go in with him, and he sought me out.
>>Dan Ariely: This was kind of showing up to your 8-year-old nephew.
>>Kevin Richardson: Correct, exactly.
It was basically under peer pressure and the whole family --
>>Dan Ariely: From an 8-year-old?
>>Kevin Richardson: From a 8-year-old and the family, the family surrounding the 8-year-old
and all the expectations.
>>Dan Ariely: So you go in and?
>>Kevin Richardson: I go in and he was just biding his time waiting for me to get beyond
a point where he knew that there wasn't enough time for me to get out in time.
He just sat there looking, looking, looking until I reached that mark.
And then he got up, ran towards me.
And even though he was declawed, he still came down and gave me a huge smack on the
face which caused an instant nosebleed.
I don't remember much what happened from there.
But when I did come around, I was in the middle of his area.
So I had moved about 15, 20 meters.
And he was proceeding to bite me in various areas of my body.
And the thing about a lion is almost a cat and mouse.
When you move, then they do something, especially when he was in this situation.
So I wasn't moving.
But when I did come around I thought, crikey, I got to do something here and get out of
here.
And, luckily, there was a guy who worked with me at the time and came in and tried to help
me and diverted his attention.
So he left me alone to go for him, and I managed to get up and get out.
>>Dan Ariely: So he was in a bad mood in general.
It wasn't just you.
He would attack anybody that day?
>>Kevin Richardson: No, he -- The thing was, back then I didn't really realize about the
behavior, the psychology of a lion.
And, you know, now knowing what I know now, it was really about his territory and you
going in there.
He wasn't trying to kill me because if a lion tries to kill you, even without claws, he
is just going to do it in one bite.
So it was really a thing, I'm bigger than you and this is my turf.
And you coming in here and trying to throw your weight around, I will teach you a lesson,
which he did.
>>Dan Ariely: And how long did you learn that lesson?
>>Kevin Richardson: Well, it was after working with lions for about a year, year and a half.
So it was an early lesson.
I call it a lucky lesson.
I did learn from it.
>>Dan Ariely: And did you make up with this particular lion?
>>Kevin Richardson: Well, I did.
But the relationship with lions, it is like any relationship.
It needs constant work.
And no surprise if what you put in is what comes out.
But a lot of the time with big mature lions is that they lose their want to form relationships
after a certain age.
And he was at that age where he wasn't quite sure of my intentions, and I wasn't quite
sure of his.
So we decided to call it a day, wisely.
>>Dan Ariely: And you moved to other lions?
>>Kevin Richardson: In that time, I had been working with other lions, too.
So they were all getting bigger.
And the family was growing.
So I got to a point where I realized that what was I doing.
It was a situation where I was faced with you can't keep on keeping all these lions.
And this facility that I was at was part of an industry whereby these lions are bred,
and then the paying tourist market will come and pet them and take pictures with them.
And I only found out at a later stage what actually happens to these cats once they get
too big.
And it is a phenomenon in South Africa that's a huge problem called canned hunting.
And for those of you who don't know what canned hunting is, it is really about a lion that's
been raised in a captive environment and then it is released into an area where -- you can't
even call it hunting because it doesn't have a chance of fair escape.
And then a hunter will come out from wherever in a world to pay a sum to shoot it.
Basically like clubbing seals or fishing with dynamite.
And that's something that I campaign quite strongly for -- or against and brings me around
the world.
>>Dan Ariely: And so as you've learned so much about lions' behavior and psychology,
are there things in their behavior or psychology to admire, that you say, "I wish people were
more like that?"
>>Kevin Richardson: I do.
I think they live a very simple life, a very simplistic life.
They don't take more than they need, and they utilize their environment very well.
And I think most people could take a leaf out of a lion's book on that -- on that score.
>>Dan Ariely: But there's not much to buy.
So it could have been if we started opening real estate agencies and banks, they would
have behaved differently?
>>Kevin Richardson: Exactly.
>>Dan Ariely: And are there particular things in their behavior that you wish you could
have changed?
>>Kevin Richardson: The one -- I think the one thing that always comes to mind with the
male lion is they need to learn to share.
That's a really bad attribute.
>>Dan Ariely: Are the females sharing?
>>Kevin Richardson: The females are more caring and more sharing and they grow up in this
-- they are the only truly social cat.
Most people don't know that.
There is no other cat out there -- and it is a very interesting thing and scientists
are still trying to figure out why, why in the evolutionary pathway did they form these
societies.
And it's been a very good way of living in the African savanna.
Why did other big cats not follow suit?
So the cheetah is a cat that does show some signs of socialness but not like the lion.
So sharing is one thing that I think male lions need to figure out.
>>Dan Ariely: So how do the females share?
What do the males do in contrast?
>>Kevin Richardson: The females would typically -- also again contrary to popular belief,
male lions do hunt quite a bit.
They don't just become the king of the jungle and then lie down and sit back and take the
lion's share.
>>Dan Ariely: Good to know.
>>Kevin Richardson: Well, they do take the lion's share when the kills are made.
They have an important job, and that is to patrol the real estate because without the
real estate, there is nothing for the family to eat, so to speak.
But the females will go and hunt, and they will bring down the prey, and they will share
it out.
Everyone will get their full.
But if a male lions lion is there, he will chase everyone off, especially if the prey
is too small to go around.
He doesn't care.
They can all starve, or they can go and hunt something else.
He's going to eat that, and he's going to protect that.
>>Dan Ariely: The male is going to eat that particular prey and not share with anyone.
>>Kevin Richardson: Not share with anyone else, especially if it is not big enough.
If it is big enough, then he doesn't care.
Then he will get his full.
>>Dan Ariely: Then they've had enough.
It is not considered sharing if you don't have to sacrifice anything.
>>Kevin Richardson: Exactly.
>>Dan Ariely: Is it fair to say they are much more selfish than the females?
>>Kevin Richardson: I would say, yeah.
And it is probably they get that way because they have to protect the territory and have
to be strong to ward off any potential rivals.
>>Dan Ariely: That's a rationalization of their behavior.
[ Laughter ] So I want to go back a little bit to your
own risk taking.
So one of the things we see with all kinds of behaviors is that you have behaviors with
low probability of happening.
So think about something like texting and driving.
The probability that you will text and drive and something bad would happen is relatively
low.
Let's say it is 2%.
One day you text and drive, and nothing bad happens.
But at the end of that, you don't say to yourself, "Oh, my goodness, I was lucky."
You say, "Probably the probability was less than 2%.
Maybe it was 1 1/2%."
And then you do it again and again, and you keep on taking extra, extra risk.
And there is this vicious cycle where things that have low probability of happening, when
bad -- the probability of bad things happening is very low, there is a chance that people
would become extra -- basically not worried or extra overconfident because of that.
Are you experiencing some of that cycle?
I mean, these are incredibly dangerous animals.
>>Kevin Richardson: It is a very good question, and it is a fair question.
That is something that I'm always conscious of and probably why I'm still here talking
to you, interacting with lions in that way.
>>Dan Ariely: Or maybe it is the luck bucket has not run out yet.
>>Kevin Richardson: Maybe it has not run out.
I think what most people who know me well would tell you, that over the years, you develop
the ability really to read the body language and to know -- I suppose the talent really
is not knowing -- not knowing when to interact but knowing when not to interact and giving
them their space and being humble around them and being respectful.
And I think you can -- you are -- you are walking on a knife edge.
And it is probably likened a bit to texting and driving.
And I'm fully aware of that.
>>Dan Ariely: And how do you remind yourself -- I'll give you another example.
I talked to somebody from a British Petroleum that -- and he said that, basically, what
happened in oil rigs is similar to this problem, is that if you have an oil rig, he said he
thinks that an oil rig should be shut down about three times a week.
A small sign of something bad will happen, if something bad will happen, it will be really
big.
>>Kevin Richardson: Yes.
>>Dan Ariely: But the probability is very small.
But he said if you shut the rig down, everybody gets upset that you and you don't see that
you might have saved a lot of things.
But if you don't shut the rig down, you get a positive reward that nothing bad happened.
And he says as a consequence, the probability of shutting the rig is very low because people
are learning from these bad signs.
And his question was, how do you keep people consciously thoughtful about the danger of
these small signals?
Because you have all of these small signals that many times do not materialize.
>>Kevin Richardson: Sure.
>>Dan Ariely: So what do you do to basically remind yourself all the time that you're dealing
-- you know, it seems so social and so wonderful, and they seem to like you.
But at the same time, they're incredibly dangerous.
How do you keep on remembering how dangerous they are?
>>Kevin Richardson: I think it's a conscious thing that you have to keep on telling yourself.
And the humility.
It really is something that has got me to where I am, and knowing that they have the
ability to kill you with one swipe or with one bite, but getting to know them intimately
is also the secret.
You know, we're not talking -- we're talking about beings that are Sentient.
And we know that they have this ability to be truly social.
And they don't just go around killing each other, because that's not in their best interest.
And the fact that they are accepting a foreign -- foreigner into their prides is no surprise.
So, yeah, I mean, it's something that you have to keep at the -- you know, the top of
your -- your gray matter.
But it's not something that I consciously have to think about or worry about.
>>Dan Ariely: Okay.
So you don't go into it and try to assess --
>>Kevin Richardson: No. >>Dan Ariely: -- the probability.
You just kind of -- >>Kevin Richardson: You go with the flow.
You go with the gut or what's developed or, you know, try to hone over the years as the
sixth sense, and try and listen to it.
>>Dan Ariely: I guess in -- 20 years from now, we'll be able to assess whether you really
have a six the sense or not.
>>Kevin Richardson: I mean, that's an interesting thing, because, you know, we're in the market
five years, I was like, people, do you think I know what I'm doing?
And then it was like, no, you don't know.
Go for another five years.
Another five years went by.
Well, I'm still doing what I'm doing.
Is the probability that I'm going to get attacked less?
No.
Go for another five years.
Now I'm going for over 16 years, and, you know, so I think I'll continue doing it and
see.
>>Dan Ariely: Okay.
That's a great hypothesis.
We'll -- [ Laughter ]
>>Dan Ariely: Let's talk a little bit about conservation.
>>Kevin Richardson: Yep.
>>Dan Ariely: So this is clearly something very central to you both in nature and in
captivity.
What do you think are kind of the crucial steps for conservation, what should we try
to do next?
>>Kevin Richardson: Yeah.
I think one of the big issues facing lions, and lions being an apex predator is a big
issue, well, it filters down into all other species, is, habitat loss is first and foremost.
So lions are facing, you know, people encroaching on their habitat.
And then when the -- the lions retaliate and kill livestock, et cetera, people in turn
retaliate and kill lions.
So it's not a win-win situation.
We've also got a new -- a thing that's culminating in the lion bone trade, which is taking over
from tiger bone.
It's similar to rhino horn, traditional Chinese medicine.
So there's a big issue facing lions.
We've got 20,000-odd lions left in Africa, and if we don't do something about it -- we're
actually just starting to see the tip of the iceberg.
We all know what's happened with rhino populations.
>>Dan Ariely: And elephants.
>>Kevin Richardson: And elephants.
So if we don't do something about it, we're looking at three of the big five vanishing
in the next 20 -- 15, 20 years.
I won't even go into at this point in time the captive populations and what they're facing,
because it's absolutely a sordid industry and it needs to be rectified.
It's ethically and morally repugnant.
>>Dan Ariely: What can be done, just let's talk about the ones in the wild.
What are you proposing?
>>Kevin Richardson: Well, wild lions, we need to look at restoring habitat, buy- -- taking
down fences.
It's a phenomenon in South Africa that's a problem.
And letting the lions and animals roam free.
So taking out human intervention, letting the animals know what they know how to do.
That is really the trick, first and foremost, is to try to buy up habitat, try and acquire
habitat, and try and make communities part of the whole thing.
Because if the communities are not benefiting, the lions sure as hell with not.
So that's where we are focusing.
That's where we're aiming.
And we, you know, are trying to go down that road.