[Kevin] Here's a topic that you don't want to bring up at the dinner table:
Catholicism and Protestantism, [I'm Protestant!] [And I'm Catholic!] [And I'm Catholic too!] [I'll
become a Catholic when they start believing in the Bible.] [Claiming to be the bride of Christ,
the Roman Catholic Church has been in bed with godless rulers down through history.]
[The first myth is that we venerate the Virgin Mary over God the Father.]
Welcome to Reasonable Faith, conversations with William Lane Craig. I'm Kevin Harris,
and we hope you'll find the topics we discuss enriching and enlightening concerning the big
questions of life. Dr. William Lane Craig is a noted philosopher and theologian known for his
work on the existence of God, philosophy of time, and the resurrection of Jesus, and we
invite you to discover the wealth of resources at Reasonablefaith.org. There you'll find Dr.
Craig's famous debates with leading atheists, articles, books, podcasts, audio from Dr. Craig's
Defenders class, and a question-and-answer section featuring amazing questions people
send us and answers from Dr. Craig. That's reasonablefaith.org, reasonablefaith.o-r-g.
Dr. Craig, sometimes tensions can arise between theologies, and I see tension in this quite
often. I tend to call it Catholic bashing, from evangelicals, from time to time, who just really
regard Catholics as so thoroughly deceived that they're almost in a hopeless state. Then I've got
other believers who say no, we only disagree about 10 percent; we agree on a lot of the essentials,
and things like that. Why don't you take a stab at this, and sorry to put you in such a hot seat,
and guide us through the sometimes troubled waters of relationship between Protestants
and Catholics. [Craig] Well Kevin I am a Protestant, and therefore I obviously have
some disagreements with Catholic doctrine. But having said that, I'm also not a Presbyterian,
I'm not an Episcopalian, so I have disagreements with those denominations as well. So the fact
that I have some disagreements with Catholics and therefore could not I think in all good
conscience be a Catholic myself, isn't to say that I regard Catholics as somehow sub-Christian or
un-Christian any more than I think Presbyterians and Episcopalians are. So we could talk if you
wanted to about some of the areas where I myself cannot in good conscience affirm
Catholic doctrine, but on the other hand I do want to affirm that my fundamental goal with Reasonable
Faith is to defend what C.S. Lewis called mere Christianity, which is the Christianity
that is common to all of the great branches of Christendom, whether they be Catholic, Protestant,
or Orthodox, or Coptic. That's my burden, it's what unites us rather than what divides
us. [Kevin] You're already going to draw criticism from those who say well you need to take a harder,
tougher line on Catholicism because it distorts the Gospel, and so on. So you can't win in this. I
think however we can win by maybe just discussing some of the places where Protestants and Catholics
disagree. Protestants are just Catholics who think that the Catholic Church needs some Reformation,
perhaps, you know? [Craig] Well and Catholics now since Vatican II regard Protestants as separated
brethren. They do not condemn Protestants; they think that Protestants are Christian brothers
and sisters but separated from the church, the true church that Christ has established. So we
certainly are living in a new era I think in which Catholic-Protestant relations are much friendlier
than they have been in the past. [Kevin] I see a lot more Bible reading among my Catholic friends
who have often complained that they weren't encouraged to read the Bible perhaps growing up,
and I don't know what that is but I've seen a lot of fruit there from our Catholic friends
getting into the word and digging in themselves. [Craig] Yes and that can only be a very positive
development I think as they become familiar with the Bible and submit themselves to what the Bible
has to teach. I think that we can all rejoice in that. [Kevin] Well what would keep you or prevent
you from being a Catholic? [Craig] Well one of the difficulties that I have would be with the
doctrine of justification as it was enunciated at the Council of Trent, which is one of the most
important Catholic councils for enunciating Catholic doctrine. In the Council of Trent,
it has a description of how justification takes place, and it makes it very clear that our
response to God's grace is just that, that God takes the initiative, God's grace leads out. We
then respond to God's grace and he infuses into us his justifying grace, and what this grace does is
give us the power to perform good works which in turn merit eternal life. Now it's that last bit
that really gives me pause. All the rest of it I think is great, but I don't think of the good
works we do as being meritorious of eternal life. That seems to me to teach salvation by works.
If you say that God gives me the power to do meritorious works that then earn salvation, that
seems to me to undercut the doctrine of salvation by grace alone. Now what our Catholic friends will
very quickly say is ah, but these works are only done by God's grace. It is God's grace
that gives you the power and the drive to do these meritorious works, and so in one sense it wants to
say no no, all these works are only grace. It is ultimately grace and not works. But nevertheless,
the bottom line it seems to me still remains that whether through the grace of God or not,
I perform works which then merit eternal life, and I don't think as biblical Christians that
we want to say that. And so that is one of the aspects of Catholic doctrine that gives me real
pause. [Kevin] Bill I cannot count the number of times when I've gotten in discussions with
Catholic friends who have said to me Kevin, just, by the way, what is it that distinguishes you and
me? What do you guys believe? They want to know what the differences are. Where do you think,
in opportunities like that, where should we go? First to justification is that...? [Craig] Yes
I think that's the bottom line really, Kevin. I mean other things such as church government,
or the sacraments, or other sorts of doctrines are important, but really at the heart of it is going
to be justification, because justification by grace alone through faith I think is the central
Protestant insight, and I think it's a biblical insight, and therefore that's something I think
that we need to insist upon. Now what I find in talking to Catholic friends is that their
understanding of the doctrine of justification at Trent is really the same as mine. They don't
think that they earn salvation; they don't think that they perform meritorious works that earn
salvation. The way they interpret it is that God by His grace gives me the power to live a good
life, and therefore I go to heaven, and it's all due to God's grace. It's wholly by grace alone. So
the line of distinction becomes very blurred or very fine, and I think that in many cases
practicing Catholics may not be much different than Protestants. Do you see what I mean? That
there may be these council, conciliar statements on paper, but the way certain born-again Catholics
really live and what they really believe may be much closer to what Protestants think than
what these conciliar statements literally say. [Kevin] Protestants are often drawn to the beauty,
reverence, and the high church style of the Catholic Church, and they think well maybe we're
a little too loosey-goosey in ours, and they're drawn to that from time to time [Sure], but we
still need to look at doctrine. [Craig] I think so, Kevin, that's the bottom line. I mean I am
tremendously attracted to this great tradition, this great historic, Catholic tradition,
and to the great thinkers that have graced that church, and to the beauty of the worship service,
of the ceremonies, the buildings and so forth. I do find all of that very attractive, and so I can
understand people who would want to be Catholic because of those things. But ultimately it does
get down to doctrine, and if you can't in good conscience subscribe to the doctrine, then I
think you shouldn't be a Catholic. And similarly, I couldn't be a Presbyterian, or an Anglican,
or an Episcopalian, because I just don't believe the doctrines that these denominations teach,
and so even though I may be he attracted to them in other ways, I couldn't be a member
of that denomination. And so ultimately I think if we're not going to be religious hypocrites,
we have to ask ourself, can I in good conscience believe the things that in this case the Catholic
Church stands for? And I find myself over and over again saying well I can't really affirm
that in good conscience. [Kevin] Dr. Craig the Virgin Mary is a real sticking point as well,
between Catholics and Protestants. Probably a lot of misunderstanding there as to her status. There
was a move a while back to really elevate Mary almost to the equality with Christ, co-redemptrix.
I don't think that ever got off the ground in the Catholic Church, but there was a move there that
was very distressing to Protestants as well who see Catholics as worshipping Mary, a human being.
[Craig] And Catholics resist that vigorously, say we do not worship Mary; she is honored,
but she is not the subject of worship. And here you have one of these situations where again,
the doctrine seems to be right, but the practice in many cases does seem to verge on idolatry.
It's distressing for a Protestant to go into a cathedral or a church and see the altar to Mary
ablaze with a forest of candles, and another altar where Jesus is pictured has hardly any candles in
front of it where prayers are offered. It does seem in practice many times a kind of Maryolotry
does occur. [Kevin] Well yeah, in Mexico there's a kind of an image of a very rigorous, vigorous
Mary exalted, arms outstretched, very much alive. But then their crucifix has the crucified, beaten
Savior, and so Jesus is not seen as vigorous and alive as Mary, just in the statuary and so on.
[Craig]. Right, and for the average peasant, so often it will be Mary that he approaches in prayer
and seeks help, and succor from instead of Christ, and she really does, again, in practice, I think
preempt the role of Christ. So this would be kind of the mirror image of what I was saying before,
where sometimes practicing Catholics' attitude toward justification is better than the doctrine.
In this case I think the doctrine is better than the practice many times. The doctrine of the
church is very clear that it doesn't worship Mary or think of her as on a par with Jesus,
but in popular Catholic piety, sometimes it seems that that line is crossed. [Kevin] In conclusion
today Dr. Craig, if you were to sit down, have coffee with a person of the Catholic faith,
what would be your approach with them? What would you want to know, find out? Well I think I'd want
to know whether or not that person has a vital relationship with Christ, or whether or not this
person has simply been raised in the church, and this is a kind of pro-forma religion that
hasn't really resulted in a regenerate heart. And that may be difficult to discern, but I do think
that that's the bottom line. Catholics that I've talked to that are clearly born-again believers
will readily say the Catholic Church needs to be evangelized, and they will admit this right from
the beginning, that the church is in need of evangelization. And so I think that's the most
important thing, to try to discern as whether this person we're speaking with is someone who really
knows Christ and is a regenerate Christian or not. If not, then we want to try to help that person to
make that commitment and move the knowledge from the head to the heart. Thank you Dr. Craig for
spending some time with us, and thank you the listener for being here today. This podcast is
available at reasonablefaith.org, as well as a wealth of audio video and written materials from
William Lane Craig. People all over the world have benefited from the insights of Dr. Craig, and we
invite you to browse our resources at reasonable faith.o-r-g. And when you give to Reasonable Faith
or purchase our resources, you help us expand into more media and speaking events, taking Christ to a
world of big questions. So be sure and visit us at reasonablefaith.org. I'm Kevin Harris, thanks again
for joining us, and we'll see you next time on Reasonable Faith with William Lane Craig.