KS: Kendra Schwarz LT: Lysa TerKeurst
KS: Hey everyone, and welcome to week three of our “Forgiving What You Can't Forget”
Online Bible Studies.
My name is Kendra, and you have seen Melissa in this seat for the past two weeks.
But I have the opportunity of being with Lysa, who is the author, for the next four weeks.
So, we get to hear some wisdom, and it'll be a really fun time.
So Lysa, how are you doing week three?
LT: I’m great.
Thank you so much for having me.
This has been such a joy.
It's … I'm just really grateful to be with you.
Oh, well, KS: Thank you Lysa.
So last week, I got to see the video that you and Melissa made.
And you talked a lot about counseling.
And so, I would love to know if somebody is considering going to counseling, what would
you say to that person?
LT: Okay, well, first of all, there's some tremendous resources online, because the number
one question seems to be if you get to the point where you're like, okay, I want a counselor,
and I certainly recommend someone who's going to be a Christian counselor.
But then, how do I find the right counselor?
KS: Yes.
LT: And so, there's some really good resources online.
AACC, which stands for the American Association of Christian Counselors.
They have wonderful resources that you can look up their website and find a good counselor
in your area.
Also, Focus on the Family has wonderful resources.
You can even call and talk to someone there or go on their website and see their recommendations
as well.
But, if there's a specific issue that you're looking for - if there's trauma that you need
to deal with, or if there is a sexual addiction, or if there are, you know, chemical dependency
issues, or addiction issues, or whatever, you really want to find someone who is specially
trained in those specific areas.
And so, look at their qualifications.
Do the research.
And, certainly with COVID, there are so many options to do counseling sessions via ZOOM.
KS: Yes.
LT: And I was a big skeptic of this, I'll be honest, because (A) I'm tired of ZOOM meetings
and (B) I just thought, is this really going to be effective.
But, you know, during certain pockets of time during this COVID thing, we have done the
ZOOM counseling calls, and it's been great.
And so there really wasn't that barrier of coldness that I wondered would be there.
So, with that being an option, there are Christian counselors available all over.
My number one recommendation, though, is make sure it's a Christian counselor specifically
trained in the area that you have identified you need help with.
KS: That's great, Lysa, thank you for that.
And I know you mentioned you and Art went to counseling together sometimes, as well.
And you both had a revelation in counseling, and it had to do with “shame scripts.”
And so, I would love for this video for you to talk about what “shame scripts’ are
and what that means for everyone.
LT: Yeah, so we did these individually.
But then it helped, as we, you know, came back together and had conversations.
But I really think that this was probably one of the most important activities that
I did with my counselor just for me personally.
And it's this activity called a “trauma egg.”
Now, when you hear that, you're probably thinking, “what in the world is a trauma egg” right?
Okay, so what he had me do is I got a big piece of poster board.
And then I drew a very large egg shape on there and then divided up the egg into little
compartments, little squares.
And inside the squares, he asked me to draw a stick figure picture of anything traumatic
that I've been through from my earliest memories in childhood.
So, was there any significant abandonment, abuse - that’s sexually, physically or emotionally
- anything that registered as a memory that when I think about it, it kind of evokes that
that sense of, like, “Oh, that was really hard,” you know?
So, I drew the stick figure pictures in the individual compartments and filled up the
whole trauma egg because it was from my earliest memory in childhood, all the way through my
elementary years, middle school, middle school …
KS: You really had to go back.
LT: Yeah, middle school had a lot of … KS: I think a lot of us can relate.
LT: …rejection, hurt, trauma, you know, all the stuff; all into high school, college,
young adult years, and then, you know, all the way up to present day.
And at first, I'll just be honest, I was probably having some of these thoughts you might be
thinking like “really?
like this is going to be helpful?”
KS: Right?
This is stick figures.
You were like okay.
LT: Yeah, like “draw?
like “I can't draw”, but it really was incredibly helpful because the point wasn't
what I drew.
The point was, after I finished the poster board, my counselor wanted me to stand in
front of him and as I stood in front of him, he wanted me to verbally talk about all the
different compartments in the trauma egg.
And as I did that, what he was listening for was a common thread of some kind of script
that I have had some significant common occurrence happen.
And I developed this wrong perception of this wrong belief about either myself, other people
or God.
And it, I call it my “shame script.”
And what emerged when I did that is this thought of “Lysa, don't ask other people for things
or don't depend on other people for things because they're just going to disappoint you.”
And the script that will often say in the back of my head, and I can still hear myself
doing it now is, you know, “Don't ask too much of people.
Don't be, you know, a pain to other people.
Don't be an inconvenience.”
And so, that was really important, because I started to recognize that, without even
knowing it, I sometimes push people away, or I don't want other people to do things
for me because I always have this little thought, like, “Don't be an inconvenience to someone.
Don't ask too much.”
Or “if you're asking something from another person, you're just setting yourself up for
disappointment.”
So, you can see how that would hinder not only my wrong belief about myself that maybe
I'm not worth that, or I just can't count on other people.
But it led me to wrong belief about other people, and then even to God, because even
in my prayer life, sometimes I would hear myself saying things like, “I mean, only
if it's your will”, you know, KS: Oh yeah, I’ve done that.
LT: Or, or like, “but of course, You know better than me, God, and maybe I shouldn't
even ask this of You.”
And so, it's like, I would pray, but then I back it all up.
Because I was, I don't know, I guess it's some kind of protection mode or something.
But what's really interesting is, if you're in a relationship with someone else, and they
do this same activity individually, a lot of times our conflict in relationships comes
from our two shame scripts that we're not even aware of bumping into one another.
KS: Interesting.
LT: So, when Art did it, his shame script was “you're not good enough.”
And so, what started happening in our relationship is, I would say things like, or he would,
he would offer to do something for me.
And I'd be like, “Oh, no, no, no, no, I'll do it.”
Like, “it's, it's fine.”
Because I'm thinking, “I don't want to inconvenience you,” or “I don't want to be an inconvenience
to you.”
But then he would hear “Oh, she's saying no, because I'm not good enough.”
And so, we would have this dialogue with words.
But the underlying shame scripts were clashing so much so, that that really was causing so
much of the hurt in our relationship that neither of us was even aware of.
And I can imagine this happening between mother daughter, between friends, between sisters,
co-workers.
And so, I think it is important for us to identify some of those events that happened
and the perceptions we develop that informed the beliefs that we started to carry, and
wrong beliefs can easily turn into shame scripts, KS: Wow, Lysa, and you have a way of writing
that helps people process through things like that.
So, this week, it's week three, and we have chapters five through seven, which are some
of my favorite chapter titles.
So, it's “collecting the dots,” and then “connecting the dots” and “correcting
the dots” correct ? LT: Yes.
And we're just diving right in, like we are, you know, and it was important to me when
I was writing these chapters, not to just give instruction to people, but to really
model this and tell more about not only my story, but my mom's story, and help people
see not just like, “Hey, you need to go out and think about your story and then collect
the dots, connect the dots.”
Like, where does this event tie to this perception that then feeds a wrong belief, and sometimes
even all the way to a wrong identity that we carry about ourselves.
So, I didn't want to just instruct people how to do that.
I really wanted to model it.
And so … KS: This is a week we're going to gear up
for it everyone.
LT: It is a week that we are going to dive right in and hopefully by me sharing my story,
it will evoke or stir up some of your own memories.
I don't know when you were reading those chapters.
Did you start to go “Oh, wait, actually this is bringing up memories that I probably
haven't even had on top of mind for a while.”
KS: Oh yeah, because I like, I'm the kind of person where I don't, if it's out of sight
out of mind, I don't deal with it.
And so, you have a very nice way of reading through your book, so gently uncovering those
things and just being aware of it, which then helps lead to healing and processing and all
those things.
LT: Yeah, yeah.
And processing is one of the most important things that I want to start, start to get
people in the habit of, or in, you know, just bringing it to the top of mind.
Because I think in our normal, busy schedules, when we're doing work assignments, and we're
having conversations about current day events, we don't realize that so much about what we're
dealing with our present is informed by what we experienced in our past.
And if we don't properly process, and really start to correct some of those wrong perceptions
feeding wrong beliefs, even though it's stuff that happened in the past, it is being pulled
right up into the present when we're having conflict with one another.
And I've often said so much about what makes forgiving someone today seem so hard, is unhealed
pain from our past.
KS: And Lysa, I've heard you say a few times just throughout this whole process that what
we're doing is hard and holy work.
And so, I think we're experiencing that this week.
LT: Yes, we are.
And, and so many times, I'll hear people say, and I used to say this, like, “I just want
to get better in the present.
I don't think there's any need to dig up stuff in the past.”
But because of what happened in our past affecting our very present-day realities, it's not wasted
time.
It's not wasted emotion.
And it is, it's good work.
And anytime we're dealing with not only our emotional health, but our spiritual health,
with which forgiveness holds hands in both.
KS: Yes.
LT: It makes us more spiritually healthy and emotionally healthy.
And allowing ourselves to go through the process of healing.
It is hard work.
But it is good holy work, and it will lead to help.
And so, I'm thankful that we have this opportunity.
KS: Yes.
All right, everyone.
Well, let's get on to week three.
We look forward to studying it alongside you.
And we have a saying here at Proverbs 31 Ministries.
We've said it before, and we will continue to say it because we believe it to be true.
KS & LT: When you know the truth and live the truth.
It changes everything.
KS: Bye, everybody.