Film Courage: We have a quote here if you want to read the quote and then we'll sure.
Michael J. Epstein, Filmmaker, Writer, Musician, and Scientist: The the more
successful the villain the more successful the picture.
Film Courage: Any thoughts on who said that?
Michael: I don't know no.
Film Courage: Okay interesting I thought maybe you would know just because…
Michael: Is it Hitchcock or something?
Film Courage: There you go okay tell him what he's wanted okay so what do you what are your
thoughts in relation to Hitchcock's films I love Hitchcock's films I think you know he
masterfully crafts stories in a way that that celebrate themes and and ideas that go beyond just
the plot and the character while also having you know really interesting characters having great
suspense and so on in terms of the quote I think it's absolutely true that the villains are really
should be the most interesting character in a movie I think that that actually is is the
case because if you want a good movie you need to be able to understand the perspectives of all the
different characters so so if there's a villain in the movie they I mean I think a good movie The
villain is not just like a pure force of evil it's not just like oh there's something some malevolent
force and there's the person fighting it who's the kind of the the hero of it you want to be able to
understand from the perspective of the villain they're the hero in their story right that's
that's people always say that and I think that is really really absolutely true and that you need as
a viewer as a creator you know if you're making a film you need to be able to understand get in the
mindset of every kind of major character in the film and understand why they're doing what they're
doing what is the purpose of what they're doing what is their goal and so on what is your favorite
Alfred Hitchcock film so I love so many of his films I mean it's hard you know it's hard to
pick one I'm going to say one that I think is most underrated maybe and that's the film stage fright
and the reason I love that film is because it messes around with what your expectations are
narratively so it sort of tells a story and you kind of find yourself looking at the Pres again
the perspectives of the different characters because they're really interesting characters
I love Marlena Dietrich is one of my favorite actors ever and she's so good in that movie
and I don't want to spoil exactly what happens in it but but she's such an interesting character in
your relationship to her really changes as you go throughout the film and it really is
one of the rare films that you know gets to the end I guess it has a Twist but it's not
really just just a Twist because the many twists are are interesting or fun but it's a Twist that
really changed my whole perspective on the film it really flipped my entire understanding of the film
my entire understanding of like how I related to the characters how I empathize with the characters
and it I love the experience of watching it do you think the viewers should almost have a hint of
empathy toward the villain to really put it over the top absolutely yeah I think I mean I think
again the best the best films have work where you can really understand the perspective of the
villain and maybe maybe you don't agree with what they're doing you know that I think that might be
a hard thing to accomplish in every film but yeah if if you can empathize with them and
understand why they're doing what they're doing and even think that they're right in some sense
that there's something about what they're doing that's right I think that makes a really powerful
film and and I don't really love like superhero films for example I'm not a big fan but I thought
the Black Panther movie was really incredible because killmonger the villain in that the whole
time you're like you know this guy is right it's really and I think you know they're it's sort of
a a metaphor for the Martin Luther King Malcolm X like the approaches to accomplishing what you
want to you know want one sort of using kind of peaceful resistance in one maybe maybe advocating
for something that's a little more active or potentially violent I know that's that's an
exaggeration for Malcolm X I don't think he was really violent necessarily but if you look at
the two characters in that they're both correct and at the end of the film you know the villain
is defeated but the hero actually learns from the villain's perspective and changes his own
perspective and that to me is like a really a successful form of Storytelling and a successful
character Arc for the hero because the hero doesn't just Triumph the hero in fact is is sad
at the end when the villain you know dies off and has has absorbed some of the ideas of the villain
in a way that's that's kind of a compromise of everything and that is maybe the most productive
approach to and I think that you know that's a really it's a fascinating movie I think it's
a really fascinating movie with Hitchcock's stage fright how many times have you watched
it probably four or five so I've seen some of his other movies you know I've probably seen
rear window you know 15 times I've probably seen North by Northwest 20 times but but stage fright
is it just because of that that story structure it just it sticks with me it's it's less of a movie
that I maybe will some of the other movies I might revisit more because they're more
fun and immersive as an experience like rear window I find just to be so the the characters
especially just such a fun experience to hang out with with those characters and to spend time with
them and to see the kind of like Mischief that Grace Kelly is approaching the whole thing with
and so maybe you know maybe there are different types of experiences with Hitchcock films
that work in different ways how does Alfred Hitchcock build suspense
I think one of his main strategies for building suspense is to tell the audience something that
the characters don't know so it's a lot of times people take the other approach where
they you know nobody knows anything right there's different kind of strategies to it
so Hitchcock will the example that is always given is I think it's The Man Who Knew Too
Much I can't I can't remember for sure but there's like a bomb under the table and
the audience sees the bomb we know it's ticking down you know from from one minute to zero and
the characters are just having a little chat they have no idea what's happening and the tension is
building because we know you know time is moving we're watching the characters and we're like you
know we want to scream at the at the screen you know get out of there you know say something
and so I think that's a really brilliant strategy to tell the audience something
that the characters don't know I love that how old were you when you saw your first Hitchcock
film oh boy I think I want to say I saw a psycho at like eight or nine some something like that
and how was it for you as a little boy to see it and I thought it was scary of course but
no I loved it I thought I thought it was a fun movie to watch and I I there's something just I
mean it's such a people don't even quite realize now how much Hitchcock use these sort of Freudian
and these kind of ideas of perversion that are that are really tied to like classical psychology
and you know I think it's easy to respond to those ideas that they're serving grained in society in a
way that we respond quickly to them even little kids I think can respond quickly to them that's
that maybe speaks to some of his successes I don't know if some of those things would work now as
we've evolved a little bit we view psychological ideas differently you know in the in the modern
so I wonder if you know if kids now if an eight-year-old now watched psycho they'd
probably just be like this is boring and it's in black and white what's going on
well he had his own issues that he dealt with and I think it came out on screen but in many
fascinating ways yeah absolutely so why do you think his work will stand the test of time even
even maybe okay maybe not an eight-year-old today but as a a would-be auteur in film school yeah I
mean I think his films are just they they just have so many aspects that work I mean
not not every film is great but I would say of unbelievable percentage of his films are great and
you know he had great casts he found great actors to to do what he wanted and he wasn't
particularly fond of actors I think you know if you hear quotes from him talking about actors
he sort of viewed them as puppets and he's like why do I have to deal with these these people I
just just say the line stand in the place do the thing he didn't I don't think he really
liked directing actors but he hired incredible people who were able to to convey those stories
and he was he I think his his the best his best skill was picking stories I think he he chose you
know short stories he chose novels and other things to it to adapt or have somebody adapt
and I think he was just brilliant at choosing those stories that would work in in a film context
it was sort of like a British version of maybe Rod Serling yeah absolutely same kind of idea where
it's like you know he's taking from great source material and again bringing in great actors and
you know presenting stories in a way that I think connect with people and I think yeah Twilight Zone
I think it's still I it's hard for me to judge it objectively but when I watch you know old
Twilight Zone it's it still all really works for me and when I watch new Twilight Zone it's the
stories aren't that good you know then they're not they're not the same kind of sourcing that
I think was done at that time and I think people don't realize how important the source material is
to the success of those stories do you think it has anything to do with the pacing yeah I
mean I think there's there's something about Hitchcock where he revels in the moment he he
takes his time and lets the lets the moments sit in many places and I think that really is it only
works because of great actors and and is excellent cinematography you know excellent structure but I
think really the actors are what hold it together they're so compelling and charming that I think
you're willing to sit with them you you want like a rear window I love I love the movie but I would
just if you if you gave me a eight hour movie just hanging out with the Jimmy Stewart and Grace Kelly
I would watch that I would love that you know that would be fun for me so I think you know to be able
to create an environment like that and have a cast like that and then to tell a story you know on top
of that using using that cast is just an amazing way to kind of build out and structure a movie.