Jess: This is The Future Of, where experts share their vision of the future and how their
work is helping shape it for the better. I'm Jessica Morrison...
David: And I'm David Blayney. Jess: Today, we're talking with Professor
Sonya Girdler, Director of the Curtin Autism Research Group, about the future of neurodiversity.
According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, less than half of Australians with autism
of working age are employed, which is considerably lower than people of working age without a
disability, where about 83 per cent are employed. Professor Girdler, do you think we'll ever
see parity in the employment rates of people with autism and without it?
Sonya: Well, I've been told I'm an optimist, so I would really like to think so. I'd love
to see that in my lifetime. It's something that I think society would benefit from and
people with autism would enormously benefit from. We're a very progressive, evolving society.
We have made many social movements and changes in previous decades. I think reaching parity
in the employment of people with autism would be really great for all. I really do hope
that's something we do see. David: Which industries will see the biggest
rise in the number of employees with autism? Sonya: Well, it's a bit hard to be prophetic.
I do think that people with autism have a lot of talents that are very much aligned
to the IT industry – roles like software inspection – because they have high levels
of attention to detail and have a high tolerance for monotonous tasks. But people with autism,
like us all, are very varied and talented and have amazing talents in many different
areas. Many are great artists, many are great musicians, many have all sorts of skills,
even in public speaking, that can be tapped in all sorts of industries. I think it's about
looking at what an individual's skill set is and then aligning that with a particular
industry. While I do see a great future in the ICT industry and there are many opportunities,
I think you shouldn't limit people with autism, just like you shouldn't limit any other group
of individuals. They have much to offer right across industry and right across all areas
of employment. Jess: What are some of the other benefits
that a company can see from hiring people with autism and other examples of neurodiversity?
Sonya: I think there are many benefits to hiring people with autism. I have several
autistic staff myself and some of them are my longest serving staff members. Because
people with autism really thrive on routine and structure, if they find a workplace that
is accommodating and supportive and they enjoy their roles, they'll often be the longest
lasting employees that an employer will ever have. So I think there's huge benefits to
be gained in terms of creating amazing environments for people with autism. And then you can actually
help them to stay in those employment roles and lot of them will stay there for a very
long time. David: If I may take things a little bit back,
how has our understanding of autism and autism spectrum disorder changed over the years?
Sonya: I think like many conditions in in medicine that are defined medically, our understanding
has evolved from looking at autism as as a medical condition to embracing autism more
holistically. Understanding that while people with autism have many challenges and I think
it's important not to minimise those challenges that people with autism have, we're also beginning
to understand that they have many abilities and talents that we can embrace and foster
and leverage to actually improve outcomes for people with autism in their lives. I think
our understanding and definitions of autism are evolving and we're beginning to recognise
how diverse people with autism are, just like other groups of individuals, and are being
able to capture that and understand that. I think we really are shifting from that medical
model to what we call a 'biopsychosocial model'. Very long word, but it's much more of a holistic
understanding of functioning and understanding disability and functioning in autism.
Jess: There's a lot of talk about talent in the workplace. Do you think that companies
will begin, or are beginning, to see that people with autism have talent and need to
be nurtured? Obviously, you've touched on that it's not a 'one-size-fits-all approach'
really, is it? Sonya: Yeah, I think companies are really
starting to embrace neurodiversity. There's some amazing leaders out there in the community.
BHP is actually one in Perth. They have been working with us a lot to develop internship
programs for people with autism and they go on to become staff members and very, very
valued staff members. I'm really proud of our partnership in working with BHP. There
are amazing companies internationally. One that comes to mind is one called Autocon,
which only employs autistic software inspectors. They employ around 200 people with autism
and they work in consultant roles working with companies on projects to do specialist
ICT software inspection roles. There's emerging models and emerging areas of excellence. What
our job is and I hope as a community and as researchers and as families and people living
with autism, that we can expand that and increase that reach to really demonstrate improvement
in population statistics, like employment outcomes. I really hope that we start to see
a shift in a better direction in those statistics. Jess: There's a recent policy brief that I
believe the Curtin Autism Research Group had some involvement in and it basically shows
that the employment rate for people with autism is lower than for people with other intellectual
disability. Why do you think that is the case? And are we seeing a shift to that changing?
Sonya: Yeah, I think it's really complex. Something that never ceases to amaze me is
that in the OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development), Australia has
one of the lowest rates of employment of people with autism. I think that's a bit of a source
of national shame actually. That's something that we should really try and do something
about. It's really about understanding. So people with autism have social challenges
and challenges in social communication, which unless you understand and you're accommodating
and you appreciate that, it's hard to understand how to accommodate and support people in the
workplace. I think it's about educating the community. It's about us meeting people with
autism at least half way, making modifications in our workplaces and generally embracing
difference and neurodiversity. I think it's a two-way street.
Jess: Talking about getting more people with autism into employment and meaningful employment
as well, not just a job, how do workplaces accommodate people with autism and their different
ways of coming at things? Sonya: There are some environmental adaptations.
We've actually developed something called the IEST (Integrated Employer Success Tool),
which is designed as a tool to help employers modify the environment to become more employment
friendly. There's a whole package of 50 pages of what you can think about to make your workplace
more autism friendly. Things like looking at some of the sensory overload things that
might be really challenging for people with autism. So lighting, noise, distraction...
open plan officers might be good for some people and might be really productive for
some types of working styles, but you know, for someone with autism that might be really
challenging. So maybe it's understanding that they may need to wear noise-cancelling headphones
or an open-plan office may not be the great workplace for them. Things like hot desks
can be quite challenging to someone with autism. If you need a routine to feel safe, you need
your chair set up, you need an environment set up in exactly the same way to make you
feel comfortable and to function optimally. If you're on a hot desk workplace that's moving
every day you don't know where you're sitting, you know that that might be really quite stressful
and something you're not able to handle. So I think it's understanding the individual,
and how to support them on an individual basis is key.
David: From your research, what challenges to people with autism face in the workplace
that their peers find a little bit easier? Sonya: I think misunderstanding. A lot of
people I talk to with autism say that the lunchtime is their most stressful time: if
they're required to go and sit at the lunch table, required to interact socially. Things
like the Christmas party, some of the social functions that come with that non-formal work
that people are actually required to participate in. I think when things change they find it
very difficult. If a line manager changes or their reporting lines change and they have
to form a new relationship with a person who may not be so understanding. So really understanding
the individual, I think, is the most important thing you can do and preparing people with
autism for change. It's really not a great idea to turn up in the office one day and
go, 'Your manager's going to change: this is your new manager and I'm leaving in half
an hour'. That kind of thing is really, really stressful to someone with autism and the unexpected
things happening. I have staff with autism. When the fire alarm goes off, I know that
can be quite a difficult trigger. There's lots of noise, lots of chaos. We don't know
whether it's real or a drill, those sorts of things. So supporting people with autism
when those very unexpected things happen is, is really key.
David: And also having to drop everything that you're doing when you've just been getting
into a groove with it, that sort of thing? Sonya: That's right, and you're halfway through
your task. I mean, you know, this morning the server wasn't working properly. One of
my staff came in and that was quite stressful: 'It's not working and how do I fix that?'
It's important to have a conversation that 'It's not your job to fix it: it's someone
else's. How about we go and have a coffee and come back and then that might be okay'.
Those small amounts of support can make a really big difference to people with autism
in the workplace. Jess: Looking to the future, do you think
that more companies, more workplaces, are becoming more accommodating? Is that a trend
you're seeing in your research? Sonya: Well, you know, like I said, 'I like
to be an optimist'. I think we've made great advances in gender diversity. I think I'm
a little bit of an example of that. I'm a female professor in science. I think there's
slightly more than 10 per cent of women professors in science in Australia – long way to go
on that front too. I think that there's hope for improvement, I think there's a bit of
a movement around neurodiversity, like there is around all sorts of other diversities.
I see neurodiversity as another part of society embracing its entire population and treating
everyone like equal citizens with equal rights. I think none of us should be defined by our
gender, sexuality, disability; any of those factors should not be relevant to your access
to employment and your human rights. One of your fundamental human rights is your right
to employment. So I think that's key for all of us, regardless of our backgrounds or how
we define ourselves. Jess: What frameworks do you think might be
in place in the future to support someone with autism in the workplace?
Sonya: I think individualised approaches that are person-centered, that actually focused
on a person's strengths, in the context of understanding the disabilities and challenges.
But if we can map everybody's strengths, we can actually craft jobs and create jobs really
that are stylised to fit a person's strengths and to leverage those in the best way possible
in the workplace. There's some amazing examples in history, like Alan Turing, the father of
the computer, and we all know how important computers are to us on a daily basis. I think
people with autism have made amazing contributions to society. If, as a society, we embrace neurodiversity
and we harness the strengths of amazing people living with autism, it can only be better
for society as a whole because who knows what else someone with autism might discover out
there and change the world. David: How has Australia been fairing when
it comes to creating workplace environments, compared to our overseas peers?
Sonya: I travel a lot for my work, which is really interesting, and I see a lot. I think
there are some amazing examples internationally of employers and employment models that can
really accommodate people with disability, including people with autism. There's an employment
company in Sweden called Samhall. Sweden has one of the highest rates of employment with
people with disability and people with autism internationally and they've got some really
great models from bracing disability and embracing neurodiversity up there, which Australia could
learn an enormous amount from in terms of improving employment outcomes in autism and
disability. There are some countries that are possibly fairing a lot worse than us,
but I think that, you know, to be quite frank, I think our statistics in the OECD probably
speak for therselves. We are ranked not very highly.
David: Why is that? Sonya: Well, I don't really know. I think
as a society we are shifting and embracing diversity, but I think it's increasing awareness
and understanding of the amazing contribution people with autism can make in the workplace
if we just basically give them a break, if we give them a leg up, if we just give them
some support to help them function optimally in the workplace. And sometimes it's not a
lot and you can tap that amazing talent. Maybe we're a bit old fashioned, maybe we're a bit,
you know, stuck in our ways. I don't know. I think we're moving forward. I like to have
a vision for the future. I think we can learn from history, very powerful teacher. But one
thing it can teach us is what we need to change. And I think employment outcomes for people
with autism is definitely something we really need to change in Australia.
Jess: It's like what you said around Alan Turing. What he provided is insane and to
think we're not tapping into the talent pool that we could potentially have because we're
not accommodating and supporting those with autism to really reach their full potential.
Jess: That's right. I mean, some of my friends and colleagues with autism are some of the
most brilliant and amazing people I know. I could talk to them for hours about all sorts
of things. So I think it's about us all understanding and being able to support our wonderful fellow
people with autism and create a space where they can thrive and function at their best.
And when you see examples of that, it's just incredible. We run a computer coding club
here on campus here every Saturday and there's around a hundred autistic teenagers coming
into computer coding. And if you want to see an energised group of young people so excited
about what they're doing, it's an amazing thing to see. They get up and they present
their projects at the end of every term and it's incredible to see how excited they get
about their work and the quality of work they can produce. I can't code, but some of these
teenagers are just incredible in terms of what they can produce in a really short amount
of time. Jess: Amazing. That's it for today's show.
Once again, you've been listening to The Future Of, a podcast powered by Curtin University.
If you have any questions about the topic covered in today's episode, make sure you
drop us a line by following the links in today's show notes. With that, I'm Jess...
David: And I'm David. Thank you so much for joining us, Sonya.
Jess: Thank you for listening. Goodbye.