Luber: Hey everyone - Marc Luber here.
Are you a great writer?
Would you love to have a law job that revolves around your writing skills – in addition
to research and getting to think creatively?
That’s what we’re looking at today on JD Careers Out There, so stick around!
[theme song] Alright, as you may already know, at JDCOT we explore career paths you could
do with a law degree both in and out of law.
We do that to help you find a career that fits you and help you excel.
Today we’re looking at careers in appellate law and our guest is my friend Cindy Tobisman.
She’s an appellate lawyer in Los Angeles where she’s a partner at Greines Martin
Stein & Richland, one of California’s premiere civil appellate boutiques.
She’s got a lot of stuff to tell us about being an appellate lawyer, so let’s meet
Cindy!
Cindy, welcome to the show.
Tobisman: Thanks for having me.
Luber: Thank you for being here.
So Cindy, I'm going to be asking you to tell us all about a typical day and who fits this
path best, how to break in, and how to excel.
But first, can you give us your elevator pitch on what you do as an appellate lawyer?
Tobisman: Sure.
Now, being an appellate lawyer is different than being just about any other kind of lawyer,
because unlike every other kind of lawyer, you don't get out much.
Pretty much you're arguing and writing appeals for the courts of appeal and the Supreme Court.
So what that means is that you get the case after people have won or lost in the trial
court, and then you get a box of stuff, and you need to figure out what the case is about,
and you put it all together.
And at the end of that process you're going to create a very long brief and then you're
going to argue the case in front of either the courts of appeal or the Supreme Court.
So it's a very unusual type of lawyer.
It’s a sort of wonky, almost academic kind of lawyering that trial lawyers hate.
This is the stuff that they'd rather not do and it's the stuff that we love.
Luber: Awesome and I can't wait to hear more.
We're going to dig more into that in just a little bit.
First, tell us this, because I think it will be really helpful for the audience to hear,
how and why you chose to become an appellate lawyer, and who amongst our viewers that are
watching right now should consider following in your footsteps?
Tobisman: Well, the thing that I've noticed about appellate lawyers is they tend to be
sort of the broken toys and odd ducks of the law world.
They tend to be very creative.
They don't mind taking a bunch of puzzle pieces and putting them together in new ways.
They have very, very long attention spans.
You have to have the ability to stick with a project, be a self-starter, because in many
instances, your deadlines are 30, 60, 90 days out, and you have to keep plugging away and
working on it.
So it's a very autonomous, solo, existence in many ways.
And then periodically there's this theatrical element where you show up in court and have
to argue your case with a bunch of other people who have studied this area of the law, read
your briefs, and have an intelligent conversation with the bench about it.
So it's a job that on one hand requires people to be very internal, and like to write, and
like to do research, and like to put things together.
And on the other hand, you have to also be able to get up and speak at the end of the
day and be able to express these things.
And you've been squirreling away in your office writing this stuff endlessly, and you have
to, at the end of the day, actually find a way to communicate it.
So, it's in an area of the law that's very good for people who love to write and who
don't mind long stretches of research and putting things together and pulling them apart.
It's a very intellectual practice.
It's a lot less fly by the seat of pants as trial law and it's not the methodical building
process and puzzling that the transactional world has.
So for people who have the right skill set for it and the right interests for it, it's
really a wonderful position.
Luber: It sounds great.
And what brought you to it?
Tobisman: Well I always knew that I love to write and I always knew that I like the oral
advocacy piece.
But I didn't like the day to day tussle of being a trial lawyer.
And so I tried that first and I enjoyed - there's this adrenaline rush that goes with being
a trial lawyer.
And so it can be very satisfying in some ways, but it's…
Luber: Alright, if you’re watching on YouTube, please give us the thumbs up if this was helpful.
And whether you’re podcasting or watching, please visit us at JDCOT.com – and you’ll
hear lots more there from Cindy on what it’s really like to be an appellate lawyer, how
you can break in and how you can excel.
If you’re already at the site, make sure you join our membership – so that way you
get access to the full interview with Cindy and lots more helpful content - as well as
all our transcripts so you can read along while you watch.
Thanks again for watching everybody.
I’m Marc Luber and I’ll see you soon.