UP FOLKS LIKE MYSELF NONE OF US
HAVE BEEN FINGERED.
DON’T KNOW WHY.
BUT BY FAR THE MOST PROMINENT
NAME IN CHINA’S LATEST BATCH OF
SANCTIONS IS MY GOOD FRIEND AND
FORMER COMMERCE SECRETARY WILBUR
ROSS, WHO JUST HAPPENS TO BE OUR
VERY NEXT GUEST.
SO, WILBUR, THANK YOU FOR COMING
ON.
I DON’T THINK YOU ARE AS
THRILLED ABOUT IT AS I WOULD
LIKE TO BE.
I DON’T KNOW, I’M VERY JEALOUS
OF BUT WHY DO YOU THINK THEY
WENT AFTER YOU?
NOW YOU WERE INVOLVED WITH THE
CHINA NEGOTIATIONS IN A NUMBER
OF PLACES.
>> SURE.
LARRY: BUT IT IS KIND OF LATE TO
THE PARTY, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
MOST EVERYBODY GOT FINGERED LAST
WINTER.
SO WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY WERE
DOING HERE?
>> WELL, LARRY, I THINK THAT
VIEWING THIS IN LARGE MEASURE AS
A PR EVENT AND A LOT OF THE
PEOPLE THAT THEY NAMED THIS TIME
ARE NOT HOUSEHOLD NAMES.
SO I THINK THEY WANTED SOMEBODY
ON THE LIST THAT MIGHT DRAW SOME
PUBLIC ATTENTION TO IT AND I
THINK THAT’S PROBABLY THE REASON
WHY THEY PUT ME ON.
CERTAINLY THERE IS NO SPECIAL
REASON TO THINK THAT SANCTIONING
ME IS GOING TO CHANGE PRESIDENT
BIDEN’S TRADE POLICY.
IT IS TRUE THAT PRESIDENT
BIDEN’S ATTITUDE TOWARD CHINA
AND THAT OF MY SUCCESSOR AT
COMMERCE TOWARD CHINA ARE VERY,
VERY SIMILAR TO MY IDEAS, YOUR
IDEAS, AND ALL THE IDEAS OF OUR
ADMINISTRATION.
SO MAYBE IT IS GUILT BY THOUGHT
ASSOCIATION.
LARRY: WELL, YEAH.
LOOK IT, LET’S PURSUE THAT.
IT DOES APPEAR, AND YOU KNOW
MIKE POMPEO SUGGESTED THAT
ALTHOUGH MIKE IS VERY, VERY
CRITICAL OF THE WUHAN LAB LEAK
ARGUMENTS BUT OTHER THAN THAT HE
AGREES WITH O’BRIEN AND
LIGHTHIZER AND MYSELF THAT IT
LOOKS LIKE THE BIDENS, WILBUR,
ARE CONTINUING FORMER PRESIDENT
TRUMP’S TOUGH POLICIES WITH
CHINA.
DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
IS THAT GENERALLY RIGHT IN YOUR
JUDGMENT?
>> YES, I THINK IT IS.
I HAVE SEEN SOME EXPORT CONTROL
ACTIONS COMMERCE HAS TAKEN
RECENTLY AND THEY’RE VERY
CONSISTENT WITH WHAT WE WERE
DOING.
I ALSO THINK THAT THE RHETORIC
FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS BEEN
PRETTY STRONG ON CHINA.
AND SEW, I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS
MUCH MORE OF A CONTINUATION OF
OUR POLICY THAN IT IS ANYTHING
NEW AND DIFFERENT.
WE DON’T REALLY KNOW YET IS HOW
STRONG WILL HE BE ON TAIWAN.
LARRY: YES, THAT IS GOING TO BE
A KEY TEST.
I WAS GOING TO CHIME IN HE IS A
LOT TOUGHER ON CHINA THAN HE IS
ON RUSSIA BUT THAT IS NEITHER
HERE NOR THERE.
WILBUR ROSS, CHINA IS TIGHTENING
UP EVERYTHING, NOT JUST WITH
RESPECT TO HONG KONG AND MAYBE
TAIWAN.
WE’VE ALWAYS KNOWN ABOUT THE
UYGHURS AND SO FORTH BUT IN
TERMS OF THEIR ECONOMY IT JUST
SEEMS LIKE THE STATE WANTS TO
CONTROL EVERYTHING INCLUDING THE
ENTREPRENEURS THAT THEY’RE
FAVORING THESE BIG STATE-OWNED
ENTERPRISES RATHER THAN THE
ENTREPRENEURIAL COMPANIES.
YOU’VE DONE BUSINESS IN CHINA.
HAVE YOU NOTICED THIS?
>> OH, YES, VERY MUCH SO AND I
THINK IT REALLY STARTED WITH
JACK MA WHEN EVEN MISINTERPRETED
OR PERHAPS DECIDED TO FLOUT SOME
EDICTS THEY HAD GIVEN HIM AT
ALIBABA.
THAT SEEMS TO ME TO HAVE TOUCHED
OFF A VERY, VERY STRONG REACTION
AGAINST WEALTHY CHINESE
ENTREPRENEURS, ESPECIALLY IN THE
TECH SPACE.
I THINK THEY ARE CONCERNED THAT
ONCE THESE FELLOWS GET TO BE
WEALTHY AND PARTICULARLY IF THE
WEALTH IS DOMICILED OUTSIDE,
THAT THEY’RE VERY HARD TO
CONTROL AND IF THERE IS ONE
THING THAT CHINA ALWAYS SEEMS
INTERESTED IN ALMOST OBSESSED
WITH IT’S CONTROL.
SO I THINK A LOT OF THIS GETS TO
THE CONTROL ISSUE.
AND YOU SAW WHAT THEY DID TO
DIDI.
WITH DIDI COULD JUST AS WELL
HAVE THEM PULL THE IPO AND THEN
DONE WHATEVER THEY WERE GOING TO
DO.
INSTEAD THEY LET THE IPO GO
FORWARD AND THEN PULLED THE RUG
OUT FROM UNDER THEM.
WELL THAT HAD TO BE INTENDED TO
BE DIRECTLY HURTFUL TO THEM AND
A BIG WARNING SHOT TO INVESTORS,
BE VERY CAREFUL OF BUYING THESE
HIGH FLYING, HIGH VALUE TECH
COMPANIES THAT ARE COMING TO THE
MARKET IN CHINA.
IT IS THE ONLY WAY I CAN EXPLAIN
IT BECAUSE THEY OBVIOUSLY KNEW
THE IPO WAS COMING.
THEY HAD TO KNOW THEY’RE TAKING
THE ACTIONS THAT THEY DID
IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE IPO WOULD
BE VERY DESTRUCTIVE TO THE
PRICE.
SO I CAN ONLY ASSUME THEY DID IT
AS A VERY CALCULATED, VERY
DELIBERATE MOVE TO SEND A
MESSAGE TO THE ENTREPRENEURS,
DON’T FOOL AROUND WITH US OR YOU
WILL WISH YOU HADN’T.
LARRY: REALLY.
THEY WENT AFTER BYTEDANCE AND
THEIR HOPED FOR PUBLIC
OFFERINGS.
JUST TODAY THEY’RE IN THE NEWS
WITH TENCENT, GOING AFTER THEM. THE STOCK JUST ABOUT COLLAPSED.
THE STOCK JUST ABOUT COLLAPSED.
I MEAN BASICALLY I I SEE XI,
POLITBURO THEY’RE CLAMPING DOWN
ON FREEDOMS, THEY’RE CLAMPING
DOWN ON ECONOMIC FREEDOMS.
THEY’RE LEAVING THE DONG
XIAOPING MODEL THAT OPENED
MARKET FORCES AND TAKING DOWN
MARKET FORCES.
I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU, DOES
THIS AT SOME POINT REALLY DAMAGE
THE CHINESE ECONOMY?
>> I THINK IT PROBABLY WILL.
IT ALREADY HAS HURT THE ECONOMY
IN HONG KONG AND THE REAL
SHINING LIGHTS IN CHINA HAVE
BEEN SOME OF THESE TECH
ENTREPRENEURS, PARTICULARLY THE
SOCIAL MEDIA GUYS AND THE
E-COMMERCE GUYS.
SO THOSE HAVE BEEN VERY SHINING
LIGHTS FOR THE ECONOMY.
THE BIG STATE-OWNED
CONGLOMERATES AREN’T DOING
ANYTHING ALL THAT EXCITING.
THEY’RE FINE.
THEY MAKE STEEL.
THEY MAKE ALUMINUM.
THEY DO THE KIND OF OLD ECONOMY
THINGS BUT I HAVEN’T SEEN AN
AWFUL LOT OF INNOVATION COME OUT
OF THEM.
ONE AREA THAT THEY REALLY TRYING
TO PUSH IS SEMICONDUCTORS.
LARRY: WILBUR, IN A WORD, AS
FORMER COMMERCE SECRETARY, YOU
AND I WERE ON THE SAME ECONOMIC
PANELS IN THE ADMINISTRATION,
QUICKLY HOW DO YOU SEE THE U.S.
ECONOMY RIGHT NOW?
>> WELL THE ECONOMY IS VERY
STRONG.
FRANKLY IT IS A BIT TOO STRONG.
SELECTED INDUSTRIES ARE HAVING A
TERRIBLE TIME HIRING.
RESTAURANT INDUSTRIES IS A MESS.
THEY CAN’T HIRE PEOPLE BECAUSE
THEY ARE STILL BETTER OFF NOT
TAKING A JOB, JUST TAKING THE
CHECKS FROM THE GOVERNMENT.
INSTEAD OF CREATING JOBS A LOT
OF THESE EFFORTS THAT THEY HAVE
MADE HAVE BEEN QUITE
COUNTERPRODUCTIVE AND IT IS FINE
TO TALK ABOUT, WELL, WE WANT
THEM TO HAVE BETTER NEGOTIATING
POWER, THAT WILL JUST DRIVE
INFLATION.
I DON’T KNOW OF A SINGLE
RESTAURANT THAT HASN’T MADE A
MATERIAL INCREASE IN THE PRICES
ITS CHARGING BETWEEN COMMODITY
PRICES GOING UP AND LABOR
BECOMING BOTH HARDER TO FIND AND
MORE EXPENSIVE.
THAT IS NOT A GREAT FORMULA.
A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE ONLY HAVE
ENTRY LEVEL SKILLS.
IT ISN’T LIKELY THEY ARE
SUDDENLY GOING TO BECOME
COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS OR CHIP
DESIGNERS OR SOMETHING LIKE
THAT.
THEY DON’T HAVE THE SKILLS.
THEY NEED THE ENTRY LEVEL JOBS.
I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY IT
IS MAINLY CREATING MORE
DEPENDENCY ON THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT.
LARRY: RIGHT.
>> AND NOT PARTICULARLY HEALTHY.
LARRY: WILBUR ROSS, RECENT
RECIPIENT OF A CHINESE SANCTION.
ALSO FORMER COMMERCE SECRETARY
AND GREAT FRIEND.