Hello and welcome to Stumped, your intercontinental hit of news, features and debate from the
quirky world of cricket and it's certainly very quirky this week. We will get to that
later. I'm Charu Sharma for Akashvani, I'm in Mumbai today, not the place to be I assure
you with the monsoon upon us. It's very wet, overcast and, of course, muggy as well, however,
had a little bit of work here and, of course, it is the financial capital, so there's plenty
to do. There's plenty to say in terms of cricket as well, we'll save that for a little later
in the show. It's Jim Maxwell here at Headingley, Jonny
Bairstow's home ground that might be significant over the next five days in terms of the relationship
between the crowd and the players, particularly the Australian players, but it's all quiet
on the Headingley front at the moment and we are getting ready for the toss and the
rest of it and see what drama we get for the third Test of what is so far been one of the
most extraordinary, exciting series for the Ashes that we've ever seen.
I'm Nikesh Rughani, here in Leicester in the English Midlands for the BBC. Nice and sunny
here at the moment, Wimbledon has actually just started a couple of days ago down the
road a hundred miles away from where I am and despite that the height of the English
summer, all the talk is about the Ashes, all the controversy, Bazball, all that kind of
stuff, so much hype around this series between England and Australia, which is great to see.
Jim I remember seeing you at The Oval a couple of weeks ago, it seems like an age ago, doesn't
it for the World Test Championship? A lot has happened since then.
Nikesh, good to have you on the show and I hope there's better weather and England for
the cricket and for the tennis, unlike here in Mumbai. But, of course, we need to talk
about the Ashes and as you say Jim very exciting. I wonder if you would have use that term if
Australia had been two-nil down, but it has been a terrific series without question. Let's
begin with mention of a little bit of heartbreak as it were because for the first time ever
in the ICC Men's ODI World Cup, the West Indies will be missing which sounds ridiculous, but
it's actually true. Two-time World Cup winners needed to win all three of their remaining
qualifiers in Zimbabwe, but first lost to Scotland and with that went their hope of
making it to India later in October for the ODI World Cup. Jim, we've been talking about
West Indies so often here on Stumped and, of course, it s a global topic, but what's
your thought because I did the West Indies UAE series in the UAE before they went for
the qualifiers in Zimbabwe and we were all talking, 'oh it s going to be easy-peasy for
you, surely?' The West Indies were actually a little worried and said 'well, we'll see
how it goes'. This is unprecedented. It is, and it's very sad given the history,
of course, the West Indies were triumphant for 15 years in any old form of the game with
the Viv Richards and the fast bowlers, Malcolm Marshall, Garner and Ambrose, what extraordinary
players they had. They don't seem to be producing those players and I just wonder if the whole
notion of the West Indies is really falling apart. It's only ever existed as a cricket
nation, not as a political or economic organisation, so perhaps the various islands are becoming
more independent in the way they go about their business. Certainly, the quality of
leadership or the lack of it is a big issue as we've seen for a while in West Indies cricket.
Some are saying the ICC should pump more money into the West Indies to try and help them,
but it is very disappointing, it's quite alarming, particularly where I sit because we have got
the West Indies for two Test matches next summer and we had them last summer and they
were awful. So I'm very, very sad to see it, but it's giving someone else an opportunity,
of course, but the demise of one of the great cricketing organisations, nations if you want
to call it, is very uncomfortable for all of us who love the game.
Without question. And you mentioned the political boundaries between the islands and it didn't
seem to bother them earlier, but I wonder if there's a bigger separation, which is why
they are unable to bring that or get their act together as a collective. I have a lot
to talk about the West Indies, but Nikesh your thoughts on what do you think has gone
wrong with them obviously over time. It has been over time, absolutely Charu.
I kind of saw the end of West Indies cricket as we knew it with the retirements of Curtly
Ambrose and Courtney Walsh you could see it coming then that was in 2000 when Curtly
Ambrose retired, Walsh went on for a couple of more years. I think they will kind of say
their blushes were saved a little bit by the fact Brian Lara was still playing, Shivnarine
Chanderpaul was still playing and they were able to still put in those good performances
and beat some of the top sides on occasion, albeit not as quite as consistently as before.
Then that new generation of players actually did come through there was huge talent coming
through the likes of Chris Gayle in limited overs cricket you look at Andre Russell's
of this world, Kieron Pollard, Sunil Narine, so much quality on paper that they've got
Dwayne Bravo, of course, and a few others as well. But as Jim mentioned as well they
have almost become mercenaries because we're talking around the late 2000s, the early 2010s
when the IPL first came about, when T20 cricket really exploded all around the world and they
found an opportunity to make millions by not playing for the West Indies and I don't say
playing for their country as well because I think that's a crucial point. If you're
getting a choice of playing in seven different franchise tournaments all year round, you're
getting a million pounds for playing in the IPL, million dollars, whatever it is and you're
getting x hundred thousands for playing in other leagues as well you can make so much
money at the expense of playing for the West Indies and it's not like you've even got that
national pride. If you're from Jamaica, if you're from Trinidad, you're not going to
necessarily have that same passion to play for the West Indies, because you're not playing
for the flag of your nation so it is a little bit different to say an Indian or an Australian
or an Englishman who would win feel that sense of pride in playing for the flag when you're
playing for the flag of the West Indies it's probably not quite that same feeling so
it's a whole mixture of things, really, but I certainly think the advent of T20 cricket
and franchise cricket around the world has hindered them and they haven't got enough
money the West Indies Cricket Board to compete with all these big money competitions around
the world and that is the issue, the distribution of wealth fair and some would argue it is,
some would argue it's not, that's a whole different debate, but they're clearly not
getting enough money. They're not making enough money the West Indies Cricket Board and they
can't compete with the likes of the IPL, The Hundred now and The Big Bash and the Pakistan
Super League, etc etc. Well maybe next year's T20 World Cup will
be a bonus. It's being played in the West Indies and the United States, most of the
games in the West Indies. So you would hope that will pull crowds and maybe engender the
attitude towards cricket that seems to have gone. It was explained to me some years ago
after the West Indies started to lose their luster that cricket is no longer a way out
in the West Indies you might want to say that about other places, but because of the looseness
of the whole structure in the Caribbean, people as you suggest they've got more mobility,
they have got more money they've got soccer, Trinidad and Jamaica both qualified for World
Cups. They have got America and Canada, they can do so much else. It's a far different
world to the one that Garry Sobers and the three W's grew up in in the 50s. I think that's
added to the problems they've got. Cricket's just not the focus that it used to be and
as I say perhaps somehow we can get them motivated next year through the agency of the T20, but
that's problematic. Finally on Stumped, the third Test of the
Ashes is underway at Headingley, but the controversy of the second Test does continue to linger.
With England chasing down Australia's second innings total Jonny Bairstow thought the over
was finished and after ducking a ball from Cameron Green walked down for a chat with
his partner Ben Stokes at the other end. As he left his crease wicketkeeper Alex Carey
had another thought or two and he chucked the ball at the stumps, it hit the stumps and
Bairstow eventually was declared out. England went onto lose by just 43 runs, another narrow
loss, and they, of course, now trail Australia two-nil. Jim, you were there at Lord's watching
all of this in real time, your thoughts? Well, it was pretty obvious that he was out
in terms of the laws of the game. It's just a question of the spirit of the game and some
petrol has been tipped on this particular line by Rishi Sunak, the English Prime Minister,
who has said that it is not in the spirit of the game. And of course, they're all opportunistic
these politicians and the Australian Prime Minister jumped on it straight away and said
'well, the Australians played very well. I'm very happy with the way they're playing their
cricket and it's a reminder to all of you who are batsmen that you must stay in your
crease'. So there has been a bit flying around in that regard. In fact, if you want to say
this is a diplomatic incident which Rishi Sunak is trying to say it isn't, well, he's
made it one, for what it's worth. It'll pass, but the Prime Ministers today have been more
in the teeth of this Ashes controversy than they were in 1932 when the British Prime Minister,
I think it was, Stanley Baldwin and then Joe Lyons came in over the telegram that was sent
from the Australian Cricket Board to England objecting to this standard of sportsmanship
with body line. And Joe Lyons simply said to the board, calm down, just calm down, so
they have been more about in the last few days than 90 years ago and coming into a Test
match where Jonny Bairstow will be playing on his home ground I can only imagine that
it might be a little raucous, it could become incendiary out there on the terraces. It's
all adding some flavour, delicious flavour to the rest of the series, and as you say
Australia lead two-nil but they could easily have lost both games and we forget what Ben
Stokes did and he was triggered to a large extent by that dismissal. That got his blood
running and he carved up the Australians for the next hour, the most extraordinary innings
and then he pulled the game out anyway, so we have had some unpredictable, spectacular
cricket in the series and this incident will continue as much as Pat Cummins is playing
a very straight bat and said we just played within the laws, we get on with the game.
So let's see what happens here at Headingley. While there are many scrumptious things to
bite into, but just before we get to you Nikesh and, of course, that Stokes innings. Jim,
I will ask you, you might remember the rather well now famous, you can call it infamous case, where
the Indians went into the dressing room having run out Bell and they took their appeal back
and when play resumed after the break Bell was back, which was quite a major coup, really,
of diplomacy and everything else in the dressing rooms. Do you think that considering Bairstow
wasn't really going for a run, which is pretty obvious, there was scope for Australia to
actually take the appeal back in your opinion? There was, but unfortunately there's a chain
of events with Bairstow having left his ground on a few occasions and also in other moments
in this series having a toss at the stumps himself. So I think they'd sort of got to
a point well, if he's going to wander out of his ground we'll just test him a bit here.
There were two seconds in it, really. The umpire was about to say over, if they ever
say that anymore anyway, and Bairstow started to wander after putting his bat down and then
going to the to the non-striker's end to have a chat and the ball was on its way as he went
so we've got these seconds, really. If the timing had been a little bit different it
would have been dead ball, all over. Now your Pat Cummins could have made friends in a lot
of places by saying we are going to give you a warning and turn it over and have you comeback,
but cricket doesn't seem to be played in that manner anymore it's becoming more combative
and the Australians were quite right to see off a dozy batsman as everyone has described
Bairstow for being careless. Well, he's certainly going to be less dozy
in his home ground, but there's so much more we can talk about this. Let's move on, though.
Let me get back to one of the words you mentioned which is important for me warning. Now perhaps
there's still scope in cricket, despite all the rules, because of the spirit of the game
to give a batsman a warning as they could at the non-striker's end as well, just a warning.
I think Courtney Walsh once stopped right short of the wickets at the non-striker's
end, poised to take the bales off but gave the batsman a warning which was well taken.
Mitchell Starc too. Yeah he's done it, recently. Well, Nikesh, if we move onto that spectacular
155 that once again almost won the game for England as, of course, they almost won the
first Test as well. The world will not stop talking about how magnificent that innings
was by the English captain. Yeah, absolutely brilliant, and for a moment,
especially when he was batting with Jonny Bairstow, but even during that partnership
with Stuart Broad as well, just the aura that Ben Stokes had. He's obviously got great memories
not only against Australia in the Ashes. You talk about Headingley 2019, but that same
summer on that ground in white ball cricket in the World Cup Final as well leading England
to that, I suppose, victory on paper as they call it becoming world champions and tying
that game with New Zealand after the super over. What an effort that was and he was in
that same zone as well that sort of glazed look over his eyes as well just that pure
focus and the ease at which he was playing some of those cricket shots as well seeing
the ball like an absolute football just hitting it into areas wherever he wanted to. The same
delivery he could pull it out towards deep mid-wicket, he could give himself some room
he could cut it through the off-side as well just toying with the fielders as well and
superhuman effort, but, once he was gone, it was all over it was kind of all boiling
up to that really tense finish and in the end England falling a fair bit short than
they would have liked, really. But Ben Stokes, what a player, what a captain and the man
for the big occasion, really, you look at, his overall record in Test cricket and in
white ball cricket as well. It's okay, it's decent, he has decent numbers as well, not
world class numbers by any stretch of the imagination. But when that big moment arrives,
not only as a leader, but also as a batter, as a bowler as well in breaking those crucial
partnerships and things, he's always there for those big moments and England will hope
that he fires that a few more times in the remainder of this Ashes series as well.
Let's also move onto mentioning one of the greats, if I can use that term, in cricket
because Steve Smith currently taking part in his 100th Test match for Australia has
reached 9,000 Test runs in two games fewer than Brian Lara and look at the esteem we
hold Brian Lara in, so Steve is right up there, averaging just under 60 a match, which is
phenomenal. Jim, how do you sum him up? We know he has these wonderful quirks, but still
a very hard man to out. Well, he has an insatiable appetite for batting.
I think he is still batting when he's sleeping. They reckon he sleeps with his cricket bat.
The thing about Smith is he is certainly a quirky player. He has a lot of mannerisms,
but like all good batsman he has a magnificent hand eye coordination and as we saw with Viv
Richards when he got to the end of his career as soon as you lose a little bit of extra
you're in trouble, but I don't think Smith is at that point. But what we are looking
at, if I think about all the players I've ever seen playing I never saw Bradman, that
was before my time, but I have seen footage of Bradman and Smith's pretty close to him
in the way he plays. He manipulates the ball, right, he manoeuvres it through the field.
That's what Bradman did so brilliantly, apart from jumping on short stuff and pounding it.
Smith is able to just knock the ball here, there and everywhere, play very sedately 'build,
build, build' and we've seen in T20 when he's turned his mind to it he can demolish bowling
and occasionally that's happened in Test matches, but his appetite for the game, for runs you
see it in everything he does in the field or batting and I'm not looking forward really to
the day he retires, because I have a feeling by the end of the next Ashes tour in Australia
he may well decide he's had enough. Well, Smith two is coming up in Labuschagne,
so those quirks will remain, but Nikesh, sometimes he does things which are pretty obvious by
moving well outside the off stump and manipulating it to leg and all the rest of the things that
you can actually see and analyse and yet your thoughts on why he continues to score big
and people can't really get the better of those idiosyncrasies that he has on the crease.
Jim mentioned Don Bradman and the fact Bradman moves around in his crease so much and manipulates
like Jim said and finds those gaps and Smith has done something very similar. You say moving
over to the off and flicking to leg, but most batters would be looking to drive through
the off to those balls and I think that is the difference, his hand eye coordination
is so good. It doesn't always look pretty, but he knows exactly what he's doing. I mean
you look at his cover drive as well, I mean, statistically, you look at aesthetically Babar
Azam and Virat Kohli, you would say at the moment have got the best cover drives in world
cricket. Well, actually, according to CricViz and all the stats Smith is a much more successful
cover driver than anybody else in the world. I mean his numbers are off the chart. We use
the word 'great' quite often he will go down when he finishes his career, people might
not appreciate it right now, as one of the very best to ever pick up a bat in Test cricket
and 9,000 runs at an average of 60 you can't argue with that.
No question about that. Jim, I hope you're wrong about next year because it looks like
he has a lot of years still. That's about all we have on Stumped. Thanks to Jim Maxwell
for this week and, of course, Nikesh Rughani for joining us. Nikesh, thank you so much.
And all of you do join us again next time, but until then it's goodbye.