- All right, Henry. Thanks for being here.
- It's good to be here, Rachel.
- Always fun to have you.
You are just an expert when it
comes to all things boundaries.
And this is like, what we need for this episode.
- Let's do it.
- I love it.
Okay. So, all of your years of being a psychologist,
counselor, writer, all of the things around relationships . . .
When it comes to boundaries specifically,
what's the one relationship in their life that you see,
is probably the most common that people
have to set a boundary for.
- The most difficult one that you shouldn't think
it would be difficult as an adult,
is with parents and in-laws.
I hear that a lot. Because a lot of times,
you're supposed to grow up as a kid,
and be under their managerial role,
and you're supposed to grow up,
and then you go and you're in charge of your life.
Sometimes, some parents don't get that memo.
- So do you see that—is it usually the parent's fault,
or is it usually the kid's fault that
that boundary hasn't been set?
Do you know what I'm saying?
Is it usually the parent overreaching,
or is it the kid that's
wanting the parent to still help?
- When it comes to fault,
I always say, yeah it's 100% your fault
for your side of the equation.
And it's 100% your parents' fault for
their side of the equation.
And that's the whole thing about boundaries.
All we can do is take control
of our side of the relationship.
It's like the old country western song,
♪ How can I miss you if you never go away ♪
(laughing)
And then there's, a lot of times,
too much fusion.
- Too much there.
I know. The parent-child relationship,
especially when the child becomes the adult—
navigating all of that,
and when to step in and when not.
It is difficult.
But knowing that boundaries are good,
and that they're okay.
But someone watching that says,
"I don't want to hurt someone's feelings.
I don't want to put up a boundary
and that be mean."
- I don't want you to either.
It's not mean to have control of your own life.
Mean is when we step over a boundary,
and do something to someone else.
But that doesn't mean that somebody is not
going to interpret it as mean.
And generally, if you have somebody that
doesn't have freedom as a high value—
because love and freedom are equal—
whenever freedom goes down,
love goes down.
And what you've got to do is,
you've got to reaffirm the love. And you go,
"Look, I love you. I'm not trying to hurt you.
I understand that this is sad and hurtful for you.
It's something I need to do for me.
I hope you can accept that."
And when they push back,
remember this formula:
Set the limit, and then empathize.
So, when they say, "Well, how could you . . ."
Say, "I understand this is frustrating to you.
I don't want it to be. But it's something I need
to do for me."
And then they come back,
and you go, "I know, it's painful.
I get it.
Maybe there's some other things I could give you,
I can't give you this holiday,
or I can't give you this time, or whatever."
But you can't judge the rightness
or wrongness of your actions
only by the reaction that you get from other people.
Because if you're living your life
just to keep everybody happy:
A. You'll never keep them happy, and
B. You're going to be miserable.
- So good.
So, when you look at
the biblical approach to boundaries.
You know, there are Scriptures that say, "No greater love,
than when you lay down your life for a friend."
Those kinds of things . . .
Where does boundaries come into play
when you look at Scripture?
- If you're talking about the Bible's part of this,
one of the passages I really love is
when it's talking about giving in
2 Corinthians 9,
it says give. Now think about this: not only money,
but think of your time,
your energy, and your talents,
It says, "Give as you have purposed in your heart."
Start there.
What do I want to give to this relationship?
Why am I doing this? What's the purpose of giving here?
"Give as you've purposed in your heart,"
and then it says this,
"not begrudgingly, nor under compulsion,
for God loves a cheerful giver."
Now you take those two words.
Begrudgingly: That means you're putting
pressure on me. I say, "No, I can't do that,"
and so you finally kind of push me into it,
and I do it, but, I'm holding a grudge.
It doesn't feel good.
And that's external pressure that causes
us to lose our boundaries.
The other part says, "Or under compulsion."
So a compulsion is the internal pressure.
It's the voice that compels you.
It says, "You're selfish if you do this.
You're bad if you do this. You ought to do this."
And you don't have choice there either,
because the inner voices have control of your life, right?
- The inner critics, they are loud like that.
- And the other thing I would say about
the purposeful giving is this:
That the happiest people in life are givers.
The happiest people in life are those that
don't live just for themselves,
but serve others.
What do you see with people when it comes to their money—
their finances? - Well I'm going to charge you
for this answer.
(laughing) - I know, bill me.
You can bill me.
What is a boundary that needs to be set
when it comes to people and their money?
- Well, it's twofold.
It's intrapersonal, right?
So, the initial boundary has got to be
getting control of yourself.
And then, you've got to notice your triggers.
Because what happens is, you make this decision,
and then we all have weaknesses.
And that's where we have to do some of the deeper work
of finding out why do I feel that way?
Why am I driven to make everybody happy?
And that internal work . . .
And then there's the interpersonal side.
- All right, so what is one boundary that
people need to set during the holidays?
- Oh gosh, the holidays.
You know what I would do?
I'd sit down and I'd draw a pie.
And I'd have three pieces in the pie.
One of them is kind of the clinical arena.
How do I want to feel at the end of the holidays?
The other one is the relationship piece.
Who do I want to make sure I see,
and who do I need to avoid?
And then the performance piece.
What are my goals in this?
How much am I going to spend?
When am I going to get my shopping done?
And all of that . . .
If you plan it, then you can get it done.
But if we just had to pick one,
most holiday pain comes from relationships.
And you know, there are certain people,
and certain patterns.
Set some clear boundaries there.
And probably that's where most
of the pain comes from.
- Henry.
- Rachel. (hands slapping)
Keep doing what you're doing.
- You keep doing what you're doing!
I'm sitting here thinking, like,
ah, the doctor, man!
Dr. Henry Cloud!
There's so much here. There's so much here!
Awesome stuff. And obviously your book,
"Boundaries," you can pick it up anywhere books are sold.
And then, what was the thing that you're talking about?
- Come find me on www.boundaries.me.
- Perfect.
- www.boundaries.me.
- Make sure to check it out.
Thanks again.
- Good to be here.
(upbeat music)