[ Did the Finns Hate the Carcano? ]
Hi guys, thanks for tuning in to another video on ForgottenWeapons.com.
I'm Ian McCollum, and today we're going to take a look at a question
from one of my fantastic supporters on Patreon.
This is a question that comes from "Primetime" and he says,
"In World War Two Finland was given approximately 100,000 Carcano M38 rifles in 7.35mm Carcano.
I have heard it stated that the Finns didn't like these rifles.
Can you comment on the veracity of that statement,
and if it's true, why didn't the Finns like them?"
So it's pretty much all true, and we can go into why.
... A bit of background on this: in 1938 to 1940 Italy decided that it would rather have
a larger calibre rifle cartridge than the 6.5mm that it had been using.
And so they designed a new larger .30 calibre cartridge, the 7.35mm Carcano,
and started making rifles in that calibre.
And then World War Two broke out for Italy
and kind of interrupted their ability to change calibres like midstream in a war.
And they ... hit that "Oops, go back" button and went back to the 6.5mm cartridge,
having manufactured a couple of hundred thousand rifles and carbines
in the new calibre, as well as some machine guns.
So, what do you do with those guns?
Well in January of 1940 a fantastic opportunity presented itself
because who would want to buy a Carcano in a weird non-standard calibre?
Not many people, until the Soviet Union invades Finland.
And Finland is in a position rather like Ukraine today,
really quite interested in buying anything that'll go bang.
So in January of 1940 the Italians send basically an arms dealer, a negotiator, up to Finland.
There's some back and forth, and eventually the Finnish government comes to an arrangement
with Italy to purchase 100,000 M38 rifles in 7.35mm, complete with slings and bayonets.
It's worth pointing out here that this wasn't a gift from Italy, these were rifles that were purchased.
Although I don't know the purchase price off the top of my head.
So the deal is made.
Rifles, as is kind of typical especially for the Winter War,
rifles begin arriving in April of 1940 after the Winter War has ended.
And ... they all show up in the summer of 1940.
A total of 94,500, so not quite the full agreed to quantity.
The Finnish military takes these things, and for them the best use of these rifles
(because they are non-standard compared to the Finnish military Mosin-Nagants),
they issue them primarily to services who aren't really expected to need a rifle.
So primarily Air Force, artillery services.
Although some of these did get issued to front-line troops.
And a little bit later they would actually start issuing M38 Carcanos
to civilians in the Suomussalmi region.
This was an area that was targeted by Soviet partisans.
There were a couple of hundred Finnish civilians killed by partisan attacks.
And in a response to this, the government was handing out rifles to citizens in that area.
In fact we have a couple of pictures that are great from the SA-Kuva archive
showing a batch of these rifles arriving at a little village and being handed out to civilians.
So now the question is did the Finns like or dislike the rifle?
Which, by the way, they tended to call the "Terni". Terni was one of the ... factories
that manufactured these, it was the most prevalent one among the rifles that went to Finland.
And that's the name that kind of stuck colloquially in Finland.
So they are called Ternis up there.
And the answer is the Finnish troops pretty much universally detested the Terni rifles.
For two main reasons. One was ammunition.
The Italians supplied something like 50 million rounds of 7.35 ammunition.
And apparently it was of inconsistent quality.
It wasn't particularly accurate, and it sounds like it wasn't necessarily always reliable.
Some of this may have got badly stored, or otherwise had problems.
And that led to a lack of confidence in the rifles among Finnish troops.
In addition, the M38 was the Italian's simplified economical version of the M91 Carcanos.
And one of the things that they had done to simplify it was replace
the fancy adjustable rear sight with a fixed rear sight.
Now I happen to think that in terms of military logistics
that was a fantastic plan, especially for the Italians.
You have a mass army, give them a 200 metre fixed zero.
Nothing to go wrong with the sight, nothing to break,
nothing to accidentally get adjusted when you don't need to.
And how often are armies really adjusting their iron sights on their carbines?
Well, one of the exceptions to this is the Finns.
The Finns had a tradition of marksmanship,
a tradition of marksmanship competition prior to the war.
And if there is any one thing that Finland had spent a whole lot of time
making as good as possible, it was the sights on their rifles.
... One of the primary adaptations of Mosin-Nagants,
one of the primary design changes that the Finns made to their Mosin-Nagants
was to improve the sights, and they improved them several times sequentially.
And by the time you get to the 28/30 and the M39 rifles in Finnish service,
they have fantastic iron sights on them.
Then you're going to take a soldier who's perhaps competed privately.
Perhaps had his own Mosin before it was taken into military service,
and was really good at adjusting that rear sight to get perfect bullseye hits.
And you're going to give him this with inconsistent ammo
and a totally fixed V-notch rear sight
that may or may not be zeroed for where he actually wants it to shoot.
... Those two things together are the reason that the Finns hated the Carcanos.
And so it was pretty common, especially for the front-line troops who had the
dubious privilege of being issued these things,
to lose the rifles, to trade them out whenever possible.
It wasn't that hard to swap one of these things for a captured Russian Mosin-Nagant.
And it seems that most of the Finns would prefer
a stock Russian M91/30 over a Carcano M38, and so that happened quite a lot.
By the summer of 1944 and the Continuation War
20,000 of them had already been lost from Finnish inventory.
And at that point the Finnish government kind of starts pulling back its use of these rifles.
Certainly they fairly quickly stopped issuing them to front-line troops
when they realised these things were getting discarded.
... "We paid for these rifles. They may not be great,
but we don't want to just have them thrown away on the side of the road."
So the other thing that the Finns did was actually start a process of developing
a replacement adjustable rear sight for the M38 Carcanos.
This never actually came to fruition, but a design was done in 1943.
By 1944 there were plans to have a bunch of rifles converted with the new adjustable rear sight.
... That would have been really interesting to see how Finnish troops ...
how they approached an M38 with an adjustable rear sight.
I suspect that there is a significant element of
a "sticky meme", to put it that way, in this rifle's reputation in Finland.
That it didn't take long for a few people to have bad experiences,
and very few people to have really good experiences,
for the rifle to obtain this reputation of being crap.
And even if the Finnish military had made changes to the gun and improved it in some ways,
I suspect that reputation would have stuck,
and it would have been extremely difficult to ... refurbish it in soldier's minds.
But it's a moot point, because only like a small number of pre-production
modified guns were made before the end of the Continuation War.
Finland would put these rifles back into inventory after the war.
And in the 1950s they traded them all, like literally all of them,
to Interarms in exchange for Sten guns, which is an interesting subject.
I have more about that story in my video on
the Finnish m/44 submachine gun, which was also involved in that story.
So as a result (we're getting a little off topic here), but as a result
by far the most common examples of 7.35mm Carcanos
(which are relatively rare amongst other Carcanos in the global sense),
the most common source of them in the United States for the collector market
are Finnish service ones because they all came in from Interarms
and were sold on the American commercial collector market.
There has been a small number of additional ones that came in from Ethiopia
through Royal Tiger in the last year or two.
Those frankly are not in nearly as nice condition because they ... were stored more poorly,
and probably used more than most of the Finnish ones.
So this particular example is a Finnish Army stamped one.
You can tell that because it has a little "SA" in a box, which stands for Finnish Army.
That was the property mark that was put on them.
Anyway, hopefully Primetime this answers your question.
I think these are a really neat example of
a rifle that crossed a couple of different national boundaries.
Thank you all for watching.