I was born in communist Romania.
And back in those days we were not even
allowed to have a passport, let alone to travel freely.
As a psychologist I work with immigrants.
And I wonder if we can manage all those problems coming up.
Even to this day and after so many years after the collapse
of communism travelling freely from one country to another
gives me goosebumps.
Do you think that it's the fear of the other that plays...
Yes.
...a big role here?
It's unknown.
They're strangers, totally strangers.
And it is difficult to communicate,
for instance, the language.
The government does not know how to manage.
Overall, my guess is that those migrants who come to Europe
because they are seen as migrants they work harder
in order to compensate...
Yeah.
...for that particular sense of, let's say, inferiority,
if you go to a different country and you're perceived
as a migrant.
I was born in Italy, in the north.
My parents come from the south but my mother
has a Spanish Spanish that is with Arabic origin.
So if I look at somebody, I don't look at nationality.
One of the most important things that people has to do
is to try to have empathy with him
to expose in a relaxed and respectful way your opinion,
listen to the others, and find common points.
Europe has not power...
enough power... to make these politics applies to countries.
So the problem is not Europe.
Is the lack of Europe?
No.
If you say we don't... they don't have enough power,
so I make it stronger.
What means more power?
More economic sanctions?
If I have a problem in a global scale,
I will not have each prime minister to talk.
If Trump comes to Europe he will speak, of course,
also to prime ministers.
But the most important person must be somebody from Europe
that represents everybody.
One person in Europe has not idea about
what's meaning in our little town in the middle of Spain.
It has not idea.
In the local, I know what I want to do.
OK.
And people... it's very easy to involve people
because it's their neighbour, their family, their friends.
OK.
So I think the people of Europe is to support this.
But even taking very easy economical approach about even
a factory or something like that,
you cannot solve if you do not have a global approach.
It's crazy to think that less than one century ago, there was
war, and we killed each other.
And now I live in France, and nobody point at me
like a foreigner.
When we say let's exit from Europe,
it doesn't make sense because it is what we are.
Europe has very good politics about environmental debt
or about climate changing.
But to apply it to countries... to its country...
is really difficult. Europe has to have the power to make it
happen.
If not, why?
Exchange of views is always enriching.
If that other person has, like, a completely opposite opinion
of what you have, you might learn something from it.
I identify myself equally as an Irishman
and as a European citizen.
I've married a Lithuanian woman, and I've been really...
I've enjoyed the experience of sharing
my culture with her culture.
Crossing borders and people living together
is absolutely no problem.
But question is, are we all going to be Europeans with,
how should I say, one big soup, everything mixed together?
Or are we still going to have our own identities?
I think in some circumstances it might be necessary to have,
like, how should I say, guarded borders.
Like what happened some time ago with this influx of refugees,
a lot of refugees went to countries
who were more popular than to other countries.
In fact, it should have been distributed in equal shares.
I don't know.
My personal opinion, Angela Merkel opened the doors,
opened... come on into Germany.
And I think that's an absolutely wonderful thing.
I feel it's humanitarian, what she did there.
If you look at the border between the UK and Europe...
Yeah.
...right, which is the Channel, there are people risking
their lives to go over the Channel.
They end up in the UK, they're going to be illegal.
So they're going to end up being, like,
at the hands of people who absolutely have no intention
to respect their interests.
As China and Russia present new sets of norms
the European Union needs to stand by the norms that it has.
Yeah, of course.
And those norms are...
Yeah.
...rule of law, freedom of expression.
Of course, yeah.
So we all recognise it, or at least in theory we should be
sharing these.
Yeah.
Yeah, you say in theory.
But in practice, that's my frustration.
In theory, yes, but in practice?
Applied to reality, in Europe you
have very different economics.
Spain economics has levelled here,
and maybe Finland is on there.
So you can't play on free market.
Europe has like how many states...
how many member states?
27, 28, whatever.
Each one of those countries going
to have some problems with security.
We have the European Space Agency.
That is something very cool.
It is something coming from a group of countries.
Italy couldn't do European Space Agency.
And France they believe a lot in it but they couldn't do it.
Germany couldn't do it alone.
Can we take something from the Flemish and Walloon
situation... the conflict in the past?
Can we take something from that and bring it
to the Brexit table?
Belgium is a country of compromise.
For Europe, if you have to compromise
with 28 different opinions it's going
to be a lot more difficult.
I think there's a better chance of compromise
with a large number of states.
I mean, if you get, say, 10, 12 states agreeing
on one particular subject, you might get three or four more
guys saying, OK, let's join it.
It reminds me of the film 12 Angry Men.
Maybe it's not...
I don't want...
sorry, I can do it alone, or I don't need Europe.
Maybe it's I don't want to be part, now, in Europe
because of the way it is structured.
Either you are on the same level,
or you close your borders and create your own rules but not
something in between.
That's not clear for...
But don't you think the more fractured you are as a society,
the more it can benefit certain politicians?
If there is a genuine interest in starting a dialogue,
if there is a will, there may be a way as well.
Unless we all pitch in, it's not going to happen.
Well, it was interesting to see how we
have the same starting point.
But then we went in different directions.
Did you enjoy it?
I enjoyed it, yeah.
Yes.
On the principles...
Yes, absolutely.
agreed.
But we have a difference of meaning
on how it will be implemented.
Mm.
When we were talking, I did bite my lip a couple of times.
Oh, all right.
I let you speak a bit.
But I'm glad I didn't butt in then, because I'm
learning different angles.
Often, we blame people with different ideas.
And but when you start to really discuss and deepen
the argument, you find many more commonalities and many more
matching points than differences.
The only way to change is through dialogue.
You know, what we've done here today, for example.
Mm-hm, mm-hm, yeah.
And I think that, in itself, is a great initiative.
It's wonderful.
And, you know, you and I might continue this dialogue...
Yeah.
...even off camera.
It's like you have a chat with your mates in the pub.
The first sign of conflict and there's a big argument.
But we had conflicts today, but there was no arguments.
Maybe if we give more power to Europe,
but within very specific...
nobody for in a bad way, maybe will be good.
OK.
Maybe.
But I it's a little difficult. But it's worth it.
OK, so maybe something changed, OK.
Yeah, maybe.
That was good.
Yeah.
You just said, like, it feels like having, like, conversation
in the pub.
Yeah.
PETER AUWERX: So I think maybe tonight we
have to share a couple of beers, right?
We'll have to continue it, yeah, definitely.
Yeah, I think so, yeah.