[MUSIC]
Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching MarieTV, the place to be to create a business
and life you love.
Now, you may have heard people say, “I’ll sleep when I’m dead,” or, “Sleeping
is for sissies,” and maybe you’ve even thought that yourself.
Well, my guest today has a very different perspective on the power of sleep.
Arianna Huffington is the co-founder, president, and editor in chief of The Huffington Post
Media Group, and the author of 15 books.
In May 2005 she launched The Huffington Post, a news and blog site that quickly became one
of the most widely read, linked to, and frequently cited media brands on the internet.
In 2012 the site won a Pulitzer Prize for national reporting.
She’s been named to Time Magazine’s list of the world’s 100 most influential people
and the Forbes most powerful women list.
Originally from Greece, she moved to England when she was 16 and graduated from Cambridge
University with an MA in economics.
At 21 she became president of the famed debating society, the Cambridge Union.
Her 15th book, The Sleep Revolution: Transforming Your Life One Night at a Time, on the science,
history, and mystery of sleep, became an instant New York Times bestseller.
Arianna, thank you so much for coming back on the show.
Marie, thank you so much for having me.
Everything looks so beautiful and you have my favorite flowers here too.
Yay, they’re mine too.
So tell me, because last time you were here we talked about Thrive.
What inspired you to devote an entire book to sleep?
So I went around the world speaking about Thrive, actually.
I did the first ever interview about Thrive with you before the book was even out.
And then as I went around speaking about the messages of Thrive, redefining success to
include wellbeing, wisdom, wonder, and giving, and sleep was one of the foundational principles.
And I realized that was what people wanted to talk about more than anything, because
no matter where they are in their lives, no matter whether they want to meditate or not,
they have to sleep.
So sleep is kind of our unifier.
And I just realized that in the same way that in my life I had collapsed from sleep deprivation,
millions of people were burned out, exhausted, and sleep deprived.
And a lot of it had to do with the fact that we’ve been living under this collective
delusion that sleep is optional.
That, in fact, in order to succeed, to achieve, we had to sacrifice sleep.
And it even became like a badge of honor.
People, especially men, but then women started emulating them, would brag.
“I only need 4 hours sleep,” or, “I’m too busy to sleep,” which became like code
for, “I’m too important to sleep.”
And then as a result we had the greater and greater number of casualties of sleep deprivation
in terms of health, in terms of productivity, and in terms of our mental health and happiness.
You know, there is this cultural notion that you write about in Sleep Revolution, I’ll
sleep when I’m dead.
Yes.
Or, you know, sleep is for sissies.
What do you say to those people who are like, you know, I wanna hack everything and get
as most done as possible.
How do you combat that?
Well, I think the most important thing is to give people the data and the new scientific
findings about sleep, and that’s why I’ve structured the book this way.
You know, to start with a crisis so that you give people a clear awareness of the dangers
of sleep deprivation.
Then move on to the science, you know.
What gives me optimism is that the new science of sleep, and it’s relatively a young science
because the first big scientific sleep center was not founded until 1970 at Stanford.
But it’s so conclusive about how sleep is a performance enhancer, how it affects every
aspect of our health from diabetes to cancer to heart disease to Alzheimer’s.
And then the history of sleep, you know, we need to understand how did we come to devalue
it?
Going back to the first Industrial Revolution when we began to think that we can treat human
beings like machines and just minimize downtime.
And one of my favorite chapters is the chapter on dreams, about the mystery of sleep, and
how it can become a gateway to a more spiritual dimension of ourselves.
All that is the first half of the book.
And before we get to the hacks and the best practices and tips and techniques, I really
want to urge people to read the first half because if we don't change our minds about
the importance of sleep, it’s going to be much harder to change our habits.
Yes.
We need to convince ourselves of sleep’s importance.
I kind of convinced myself the hard way by collapsing from sleep deprivation, but I’m
hoping that people can convince themselves without having to go through a painful wakeup
call as I did.
And frankly, Marie, I’m really grateful that I did.
It could have been so much worse.
Yeah.
One of the most shocking chapters for me was about the sleep industry.
And I was literally…
I couldn’t believe what I was reading for folks who take medication, sleep aids, to
go to sleep and the devastating impact of the things that they don't know that they’re
doing.
Getting up in the middle of the night and driving a car.
I mean, this is insane.
So I was curious, have you had any pushback from big pharma?
No.
You know why?
Because there's nothing they can say.
Right.
And, in fact, America is the only country other than New Zealand allowed to advertise
sleeping pills.
And so you have all these ads of happy, beautiful people frolicking in the fields while a cheerful
voice reads 92 devastating, adverse effects including you may get in your car and drive
without being aware of it.
And it doesn't say that, but it has happened.
You may actually kill or hurt someone.
And then a lot less serious and sometimes people consider them amusing, but still stunning
things - you may eat yourself…
Into a stupor.
Into a stupor without even having any memory of it.
A friend of mine received 10 days after she apparently ordered them, an entire packet
of clothes which all turned out to be hooker clothes that she had ordered without having
any recollection of it.
And so some of these things are funny, but the idea that you can do all of these things
without any memory or consciousness and the fact that people nevertheless continue to
be chronically dependent on sleeping pills.
I’m not talking about you went through a traumatic event and you need to take a sleeping
pill.
I’m talking about people who literally cannot go to sleep without one.
And the impact on their health is devastating.
I was in shock when I read that.
And frankly sometimes, you know, if I’m watching TV and I catch one of those commercials.
And, you’re right, there’s butterflies all over the place and it’s like, you know,
you may have an increase in suicidal thoughts.
And I’m like, “What?!”
Like, this is insane.
But I love that you painted that picture so graphically in the first part of the book
because I think it helps wakes us… it wakes us all up.
Well, and it also prepares us for the second part of the book where I walk us through all
the natural alternatives.
Yes.
It’s not like we don't have hundreds of natural alternatives.
Yes.
Including if you have, like, some extreme case of insomnia, cognitive behavioral therapy,
which is incredibly effective and much more effective long term than any dependence on
sleeping pills.
It’s just that we can’t be lazy about it.
Yes.
And we need to experiment with what works for us.
And for me the key thing, Marie, is creating a transition ritual between our day life and
sleep.
You know, most of us right now literally are on our phones until the last moment, you know,
texting, emailing, checking social media, and then we turn off the light and we may
go to sleep right away because our bodies are exhausted but our brains have not slowed
down.
So they wake us up in the middle of the night, which is normally not a problem except we
can’t go back to sleep easily because then we start processing our day or worrying about
tomorrow.
And if our phone is by our bed, we are very likely to pick it up and start responding
to texts or checking notifications, etcetera.
And that’s why I say in the book that the most essential part of this transition ritual
is turning off all our devices and gently escorting them out of our bedroom.
And for me, my ritual now is 30 minutes.
But, you know, start with 5.
Yeah.
Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.
You know?
Start wherever you can.
I’m a big believer, as I know you are, from all your work, in microsteps.
Yes.
But for me it starts with turning off the devices and moving them outside my bedroom,
having a hot bath.
I love the kind of ritual of water.
It’s almost like a purification ritual, washing away the day.
And every day however blessed we may be in our lives is a mixture of good things and
not so good things, you know, obstacles, incompletions.
There has to be a clear demarcation line between all that and the time to recharge.
And I love having epsom salts in my bath, having candles nearby, low lights.
It’s also like a way of rekindling your romance to sleep.
Instead of how many people see then let me tell you Marie, everything I’m saying I’ve
done, you know, for years and years.
You know, basically seeing sleep like enemy territory.
How can we…
how long can we avoid crossing that border?
Yes.
It’s…
I loved hearing about your rituals.
I think one of the other things that I really found fascinating in your book was this idea
that our brain is like a dishwasher and all of the toxins that it removes while we’re
sleeping.
Again, this is nothing that we’re ever taught.
No, and you know, it’s all relatively new science, again.
We really used to be told that sleep is a time of inactivity for the brain.
In fact, one of the metaphors was it’s like putting your car in the garage and turning
off the ignition key.
And now we know that sleep is actually a time of frenetic activity for the brain.
It’s more like your car becoming a driverless car and running essential errands for you,
and one of the most essential errands is cleaning up the toxins that accumulate during the day.
I actually also found that one of the most fascinating scientific findings and, as you
know, the book has 50 pages of scientific endnotes not because I expect anybody to read
them from beginning to end, but I want to convince even the greatest skeptic that this
is not like one woman’s opinion.
This is conclusive, scientific evidence.
And it’s almost like, you know, we used to believe that smoking was glamorous.
In fact, you had doctors advertising cigarettes in the fifties and saying things like, you
know, I smoke menthols because they refresh my throat.
And then the scientific evidence about the dangers of tobacco became too overwhelming
to ignore.
I think we’re reaching that tipping point now for sleep deprivation.
I’m really happy that you're talking about this so much and that you're such a sleep
evangelist and you’re bringing it out because one of the other, you know, bits of the book
that I appreciated and that actually got me thinking was about pilots and drivers and
all of us, you know, whether it’s an Uber driver or a taxi driver or ourselves with
our families taking a road trip and the extreme danger that we can put ourselves in and that
our society, we kind of force upon each other to work, work, work, work, work nonstop.
It’s unbelievable.
It’s so important that we do start shifting our cultural ideas about what it means to
be well rested.
Well, in fact, that’s why we launched a partnership with Uber to raise awareness about
drowsy driving.
Because we’ve raised awareness as a culture about drunk driving and we have halved the
crashes because of drunk driving, because of the designated driver campaigns, friends
don't let friends drive drunk.
We need to do the same around drowsy driving.
Yes.
Because last year there were 8 thousand deaths because of drowsy driving and 1.2 million
crashes.
And I think, in fact, what is even worse is that it’s pretty hard not to know when you’re
drunk, unless you’re unconscious.
But very often people think they can power through when they’re tired.
Well, I’m going to get a Coke or a coffee and power through.
And it can take literally 2 seconds of microsleep for tragedy to follow.
So scary.
So I’m curious, what are some of the biggest changes you made?
I heard about your sleep ritual that I love.
What I’m curious about though now is you’re Arianna Huffington.
You’re this amazing powerhouse of a woman.
Have you bumped up against any struggles for yourself?
You know, like, Arianna, can you speak here, can you come here, and started to change your
decision making based on what you’ve learned from all the research?
I’ve definitely changed my decision making, but what is interesting, Marie, is that, I
mean, I’m…
I know we follow each other on social media, so you know that I’m very active.
I think the question is what do I say no to in order to be able to get my 8 hours sleep,
which is what I need.
You know, the consensus is that the vast majority of us need 7 to 9 hours.
You know, you may do great on 7 or you may need 9.
Unless you’re a short sleeper, which is a small minority of us who can do great on
4 or 5 hours.
They have a genetic mutation though, and you can’t train yourself to have a genetic mutation.
You either have it or you don't.
So I… like tonight is a good example because after we finish our conversation I’m going
to do The Daily Show with Trevor Noah and after that I was going to go to the public
library Spring Gala, which is a beautiful event.
But tomorrow morning I have to get up really early to go to Minneapolis, so I cancelled
going today to the public library.
So, you know, these are really the tradeoffs, but I didn't…
I don't have any sense of sacrifice about it because the alternative would have been
for me to get up at 5 in the morning to go to Minneapolis tomorrow and be a zombie for
the whole day.
And I can’t stand myself now when I’m sleep deprived.
I really don't like to be around myself, and there’s nothing I can do.
You know, I become irritable and moody and you look at me a certain way and I take it
personally and I’m not creative and I just go through the motions.
And I don't want to be that person.
And I also now really value so much loving my life.
You know, I feel we’re so blessed and that doesn't mean that there are no problems in
our lives or things we’re dealing with, but on the whole, you know, just being healthy
and doing something you love is just something to be constantly grateful for.
And I don't want to take it for granted and I don't want to just move through the motions
and get stuff done.
I really want to bring joy into what I’m doing.
And so it’s become really much easier to just make decisions based on prioritizing
my sleep.
I love it.
And it gives you a really easy way to keep yourself in the state that you want to be
in, which is happy and joyful.
I know for me anytime, you know, I do a cleanse and I’m like, “Oh, I’m not gonna be
eating dairy or I’m not gonna be doing that,” my decision making process just gets a million
times easier.
So for anyone listening, hopefully we know they’re gonna get the book.
But what are 3 things if you could advise anyone, ok, if you could just try these 3
things to start to prioritize sleep.
What would they be?
So let me just talk about a couple more elements of the transition because the transition is
the key, the first key thing.
And anybody watching with children knows that that’s what we do with our children.
You know, when they’re babies we don't just drop them in bed.
We give them a bath, we put them in their PJs, we tell them a story.
So we have to think of the child in us needing also a ritual, a sacred ritual before going
to sleep.
And beyond everything I said, I think it is very important to have no screens in bed.
It’s okay if you have a TV in the bedroom.
Fine.
Just don't watch it before you go to sleep.
And read real books, physical books.
In fact, if anybody is reading The Sleep Revolution and it helps them fall asleep, I’ll take
it as a personal victory.
And then I love ending the night, that’s like you told me three, so the third…
the second thing is giving the closing scene of the day to what you’re grateful for.
Because you could give the closing scene of the day to what didn't work that day or the
mistakes you made or the worries about the next day, and then that’s going to wake
up up in the middle of the night and you’ll be processing it.
So just focusing on what we are grateful for as the last thing of the night.
So, you know, if you have a partner you can share it with them verbally, you can write
it down, you can just tell yourself.
Whatever works for you.
And the third thing is to have like a sleep kit ready whether you are traveling or at
home.
And my sleep kit includes an eye mask, because having…
being in a dark room is really important.
If you are traveling they often give you an eye mask, but it’s often harsh and plastic.
So I have a beautiful eye mask and I invest in something silky and yummy.
I have a pink one, a pink silk one.
You know, just have fun with your sleep kit.
I have noise cancelling headphones, if you prefer earplugs, whatever.
Something industrial strength though.
Yeah.
Lavender spray.
I have soothing teas like licorice and lavender and chamomile.
And I have a kit that I travel with.
Even if i’m… even if I’m going to the [inaudible] for an hour because I may just
want to take a nap if I’m tired.
That little kit is tiny, it’s not like it takes a lot of room.
And I also have a dedicated sleep iPod because I don't want to have my phone by my bed.
I have all my meditations that help me sleep on the iPod.
In fact Agapi, my sister and I, wrote a meditation that she recorded which is on my website,
AriannaHuffington.com if people want to download it.
And so if you wake up in the middle of the night or you’re on a plane and you can’t
sleep easily, play a meditation.
I have 2 meditations that I mention in the book that I’ve never heard to the end because
they always put me to sleep.
That’s awesome.
Thank you so much.
Thank you for doing the great work that you do in the world and for taking such a strong
stand for sleep, because we all really do need it.
Thank you so much, Marie, and thank you for what you are doing.
Now Arianna and I would love to hear from you.
What is one thing that you could do to make sleep a higher priority in your life?
And, most importantly, what action are you committing to take starting tonight?
Leave a comment below and let us know.
Now, as always, the best conversations happen after the episode over at MarieForleo.com,
so go there and leave a comment now.
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You know, the consensus is that the vast majority of us need 7 to 9 hours.
You know, you may do great on 7 or you may need 9.
Unless you’re a short sleeper, which is a small minority of us who can do great on
4 or 5 hours.
They have a genetic mutation though.
And you can’t train yourself to have a genetic mutation, you either have it or you don’t.