LAWSON: I don't know that we can say that there's just one,
but there'd be a cluster. And I'm sure the other two men will add to the cluster. I just
see the church just caving in to the world and capitulating to the world and trying to, at times,
become like the world in order to reach the world and have lost sight of the fact that church really
should not be as much like the world; it should be as much like heaven as possible, another world.
And so, there's other things, I know the men will add to that, but I see that as a glaring,
slippery slope that the church is on right now of just caving in
to the world, in what we teach, how we teach, how we worship, how we carry out ministry,
we have yielded the high ground and have...we're on a slippery slope, generally speaking.
LAWSON: Burk, what would you add to that?
PARSONS: Well, I completely agree with you, Steve. I think you're exactly right.
Never have we been in a time where the world is more churchy and the church more worldly.
And I think that for many years, churches understood and they acknowledged that they
were to be countercultural. And then for, I think, maybe two, three decades with certain movements,
certain churches kind of leading the charge in those movements, seeker-sensitive, attractional,
and so on, they pretended...they pretended to espouse a countercultural position in the church.
But what's happened, I think, in the last...we've talked about this so much over the years, I think
what's happened in recent years, and it's happened rapidly, because of certain leaders in the church
and churches following their example, it has become more easy for churches
to be more okay with not being countercultural. It's almost as if some of these leaders within
the church have paved the way for those pastors, those elders, those churches to say, "We don't
have to pretend anymore." And so, they were sort of hiding under the guise, the lip service
of being different, and we're different from the world and we're countercultural,
we're going to preach the gospel and the Word of God, it doesn't matter what the world thinks or
says. But now it's become easier for them to no longer have the pretence. Does that make sense?
LAWSON: That's good. Yeah, that's very good.
NICHOLS: You know, I think this is...a question has a different answer to different age groups.
There are things that pull it together. The culture question is a huge question,
and the hostility we face. I just spoke with a person a couple days ago, thirty-three years
with a company and he shared – and rather highly positioned – and he shared that he is viewed as
immoral because he will not champion the LGBTQ cause. So, not only does he have to tolerate it,
but he needs to champion it. And by not doing that, he's the immoral one.
And I think that, that generation, whether it's the boomers or the great generation,
they've got a biblical literacy to help them to respond to these cultural challenges.
I think what we've got to recognize is that the up-and-coming generations are facing really hard
questions, questions I never faced growing up – theological, cultural questions. And
I think the challenge for us is to help them become more biblically literate and recognize
that they don't have to cave in. They don't have to go along with culture. The Bible has answers
for these questions, and they can have a confidence in Scripture,
but we have to teach it to them. They have to know it to know that the answers are to be found there.
So, I think the cultural question is huge but I think it impacts the generations differently,
and I think it helps us to think about our task
in equipping them to be able to be Christians in this moment and be faithful disciples.
PARSONS: I think real quick, Chris, before we leave this subject, something that we were
discussing over dinner, Steve, is this…there's a new religion. It's a very old religion, but
the world has become very religious if you've not noticed this in recent years. I mean,
it always has been, but there is now a more united religion that the world has, and it's
infiltrated the church and much of the church has sort of bought into it is as you were getting it.
But the problem is with this new kind of world religion that has infiltrated the church
is that the world has convinced the church that it must embrace the entirety of this new religion.
And they can't just embrace one aspect of the religion, they have to embrace the entirety of it.
Now, this new religion is multifaceted, very complex,
and it's constantly changing. And that's where a lot of pastors and churches are getting
trapped. Because at first, they thought, "Okay, so I just need to be accepting of
this aspect of social justice. If I just accept that, then they'll accept me."
And they realize no, no, you actually have to embrace the whole mantra, the entire
theology and philosophy of social justice in the way they define it, whoever "they" is, and that's
constantly changing too. And then then once they accept that, they say, "Well, that's not enough."
And as their churches change, as people leave their churches, as other people come to their
churches who are attracted to this new mindset, then they come to realize, "Okay, I have to
embrace critical race theory and critical theory in general," and they have to embrace all of that.
And then, it's to the constantly changing and constantly being reshaped, sort of new wokeism
religion, and then they just keep adding to it. And I just heard recently about what
I thought was a faithful pastor now having to embrace the whole "defund the police" nonsense,
because that's a part of the same religion. And if you don't buy every aspect of it,
embrace it, well then, you're the immoral one, you're the outcast.
And that's kind of the way it works and it's actually, it's actually the way cults work.
LAWSON: Yeah, Burk and I were talking at dinner about this. And with Reformed theology,
it's a comprehensive body of truth and knowledge that's all wired together.
And so, we were saying, "You tell me what you believe over here," let's say in theology proper,
I'll tell you exactly what you believe over here about soteriology, ecclesiology,
etc., because the Bible is tightly woven together. No truth stands independent of another truth.
Truth is like links in a chain, and they all just hold together.
And it's the same way with what Burk is talking about with this worldview, this secular worldview
that's just been thrust upon us like a tsunami over the last two to three years, especially.
It's all tightly woven together as well. And you pull a thread over here and it crinkles over here.
You've got to buy in to the whole system, because no one of these spokes in the wheel stands alone.
It's all tied into the hub, which is what we would call "walking according to the world,"
to buying into the world's ideology, to use the word you used earlier, buying in to the world's
values and perspectives and philosophy. It's all woven together, it'll just have different labels
on the bottles of poison, but it's the same poison on the inside. So...
PARSONS: Exactly what Steve was saying, too. I mean, if we just teach people the Bible,
we teach them to be biblically literate. The reality of it is that the Bible addresses
all of these things and better. The Bible teaches us why racism is a sin and of Satan. It teaches us
why white supremacy or whatever other supremacy is out there is absolutely insane.
The Bible is the one that teaches us about true justice, ecclesially,
familially, socially. The Bible is what teaches us these right ways of looking at these things,
through right theology with right ends, because the goal is the glory of God.