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♪ >> STEPHEN: WELCOME BACK.
MY FIRST GUEST IS AN HISTORIAN AND THE BESTSELLING AUTHOR OF
"HOW TO BE AN ANTIRACIST" AND "STAMPED FROM THE BEGINNING."
PLEASE WELCOME IBRAM X. KENDI!
PROFESSOR KENDI, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
>> OH, IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE ON THE SHOW.
>> Stephen: YOU'RE AMERICA'S LEADING SCHOLAR ON ANTIRACISM,
AND IN YOUR 2019 BOOK "HOW TO BE AN ANTIRACIST" IS CURRENTLY A
NUMBER ONE NONFICTION BEST SELLER.
WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING NOT RACIST AND BEING
ANTIRACIST?
>> WELL, HISTORICALLY, WHENEVER PEOPLE ARE CHALLENGED FOR SAYING
AND DOING SOMETHING THAT'S RACIST, TYPICALLY, THEIR
RESPONSE IS I'M NOT RACIST, NO MATTER WHAT THEY JUST SAID, NO
MATTER WHAT THEY JUST DID, BY CONTRAST, SOMEONE WHO IS
STRIVING TO BE ANTI-RACIST IS ACTUALLY WILLING TO ADMIT THE
TIMES IN WHICH THEY EXPRESS RACIST IDEAS.
THEY'RE WILLING TO ADMIT THE TIMES IN WHICH THEY SORT OF
SUPPORT RACIST POLICIES BECAUSE THEY'RE IN A PROCESS OF
CHANGING.
THEY'RE CHANGING THEMSELVES, THEY'RE SEEKING TO CHANGE
SOCIETY.
THEY'RE NOT NECESSARILY IN DENIAL, LIKE MANY AMERICANS WHO
DALE CLAIM THEY'RE NOT RACIST.
>> Stephen: WELL, I LIKE THAT FRAMING OF THE CONVERSATION
BECAUSE I, LIKE I'M SURE MANY AMERICANS, HAVE EXAMINED THEIR
CONSCIENCE ESPECIALLY OVER THE LAST FOUR WEEKS AND SAID I AM A
WHITE AMERICAN, I'VE BENEFITED FROM OUR SYSTEMIC RACISM IN OUR
SOCIETY AND I CAN'T SAY HONESTLY THAT I DON'T HAVE ANY RACISM,
BUT THE REFRAINT THAT YOU PUT IT ALLOWS A HOPE FOR CHANGE.
>> WELL, I MEAN, AND HUMANS HAVE THE CAPACITY TO CHANGE, AND I
THINK WE HAVE TO ALLOW FOR THAT.
AND THE QUESTION IS ALWAYS, AND I THINK WITH ANYTHING, WHEN
SOMEONE DIAGNOSES US, WHEN SOMEBODY EXPLAINS THAT WE HAVE
SOME SORT OF PROBLEM, THE QUESTION, I THINK, FOR ALL OF US
IS ARE WE GOING TO DENY THAT PROBLEM?
ARE WE GOING TO DENY THAT ADDICTION EVEN, OR ARE WE GOING
TO ADMIT IT AND THEN BEGIN THE PROCESS OF CHANGING OURSELVES,
HEALING OURSELVES SO THAT WE CAN CHANGE AND HEAL THIS COUNTRY?
>> Stephen: ANOTHER THING I LIKE THE WAY YOU'VE DONE THIS IS
WHILE NOT A RACIST AND ANTIRACIST BOTH MIGHT BE
DESCRIBED AS AN IDENTITY, ANTIRACIST IMPLIES ACTION.
>> OH, IT DOES.
AND, REALLY, I'M NOT RACIST IS AN IDENTITY BECAUSE, TYPICALLY,
A PERSON BELIEVES THAT'S WHO THEY ARE.
FOR SOMEBODY WHO'S BEING ANTIRACIST, IT'S MORE SO WHAT
THEY'RE BEING BASED ON WHAT THEY'RE SAYING AND DOING.
ANTIRACIST KNOW IF THEY'RE EXPRESSING RACIAL GROUPS ARE
EQUAL, THEY'RE BEING ANTIRACIST, IF THEY'RE CHALLENGING RACIST
POLICIES THEY'RE BEING ANTIRACIST.
SO YOU HAVE TO DO AND BE SOMETHING IN ORDER TO BE
ANTIRACIST.
>> Stephen: CAN YOU BE BOTH RACIST AND ANTIRACIST AT THE
SAME TIME?
I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE -- WE HOLD THESE TRUTHS TO BE
SELF-EVIDENT, ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.
THAT IS BALDLY AN ANTIRACIST STATEMENT WRITTEN BY A RACIST
MAN.
>> AND EVEN IN THAT STATEMENT YOU HAD SOME PEOPLE AT THE TIME
BELIEVED WE WERE ALL CREATED EQUAL, WHICH WAS AN ANTIRACIST
IDEA, BUT THEN THEY ALSO BELIEVED, LET'S SAY, BLACK AND
EVEN NATIVE PEOPLE BECAME INFERIOR ON EARTH, IN OTHER
WORDS, THEIR CULTURES ARE INFERIOR, THEY'RE INFERIOR
BECAUSE OF THEIR ENVIRONMENT.
SO WE WERE ALL EQUAL TO BEGIN WITH, BUT AS A RESULT OF THE
CULTURES OF BLACK OR EVEN NATIVE PEOPLE, THEY'RE INFERIOR RIGHT
NOW.
>> Stephen: I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT THE HISTORY OF RACISM.
IS WHAT WE THINK OF AS RACISM A MODERN -- AND I MEAN 500 YEARS
OLD -- A MODERN EUROPEAN COLONIAL IDEA THAT IS MERELY A
SUBSET OF INEQUALITY, OR HAS THERE ALWAYS BEEN SOME FORM OF
RACIAL DISCRIMINATION?
>> SO, FOR A VERY LONG TIME, YOU CAN LOOK INTO ANTIQUITY AND SEE
SEXISM AND ETHNOCENTRISM AND SEE OBVIOUS RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION,
BUT RACISM IS A MODERN PHENOMENON.
THE CONCEPT OF RACE -- BLACK AFRICA, NATIVE AMERICAN, EVEN
WHITE EUROPE -- IS A PHENOMENON THAT LARGELY COMES OUT OF
COLONIALISM AND SLAVERY.
>> Stephen: SO IF THERE HAVE BEEN ALWAYS BEEN, LIKE, MAN'S
INHUMANITY TO MAN, DID THE SORT OF ECONOMIC DESIRE TO EX PLOIN
PLOIT AFRICA CANS -- TO EXPLOIT AFRICANS LEAD TO THE
JUSTIFICATION OF RACISM?
>> EXACTLY.
THE CORE TO HAVE RACISM IS SELF-INTEREST.
IN OTHER WORDS, I WANT TO SLAVE TRADE OR ENSLAVE AFRICAN PEOPLE
OR EVEN NATIVE PEOPLE AND, THEREFORE, I'M GOING TO CREATE
POLICIES THAT MAKE ALL THESE DIFFERENT ETHNIC GROUPS ONE
PEOPLE, WORTHY OF ENSLAVEMENT, AND THEN I'M GOING TO ARGUE
THESE PEOPLE ARE INFERIOR, THEY'RE SAVAGE, AND SHOULD BE
DRIVEN FROM THEIR LAND THAT I'M SUPPOSEDLY CIVIL IDESSING.
SO THE SELF-INTEREST LED TO THE RACIST POLICIES, AND THE RACIST
POLICIES HAVE LED TO THE RACIST IDEAS, AND PEOPLE BELIEVE THESE
PEOPLE'S WERE BARBARIC AND SAVAGES WHICH MADE THEM IGNORANT
AND HATEFUL.
>> Stephen: WELL, WE MAY NOT HAVE ALWAYS HAD RACISM AS WE
PERCEIVE IT, BUT HUMANS HAVE ALWAYS HAD SELF-INTEREST.
HOW CAN YOU -- HOW CAN WE MAKE IT SO THAT BEING ANTIRACIST IS
IN YOUR SELF-INTEREST?
>> ONE THING FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS, BEING
ANTIRACIST OR CREATING A MORE EQUITABLE SOCIETY IS ACTUALLY IN
THEIR SELF-INTERESTS, AND I THINK THAT, FOR INSTANCE, WHITE
AMERICANS ARE CONSTANTLY THINKING ABOUT WHAT THEY WOULD
LOSE WITH A RADICAL SORT OF RENOVATION OF THIS COUNTRY, OF
THIS COUNTRY'S POLICIES, AS OPPOSED TO WHAT THEY'D GAIN.
SO THEY'RE TOO QUICK TO COMPARE THEMSELVES TO PEOPLE OF COLOR AS
OPPOSED TO COMPARING THEMSELVES TO WHAT PEOPLE IN OTHER WESTERN
DEMOCRACIES HAVE.
AND THEN THE QUESTION IS WHY DON'T WE HAVE PAID FAMILY LEAVE
IN THE UNITED STATES?
WHY DON'T EVERYONE HAVE ACCESS TO FREE HEALTHCARE?
WHY IS THERE SO MUCH INCOME INEQUALITY?
AND ONE OF THE REASONS YOU CAN POINT TO IS RACISM AND PEOPLE
BEING CONSTANTLY MANIPULATED TO SUPPORTING POLICIES AND
POLICY-MAKERS AGAINST THEIR OWN SELF-INTERESTS BY RACIST IDEAS.
>> Stephen: AND THE CUDGEL OF THE WELFARE QUEEN BEING USED TO
DESTROY THE IDEA OF ANY SORT OF SAFETY NET THAT I SAW GROWING UP
IN THE 180s.
>> EXACTLY, AND IT WAS A SOCIAL SAFETY NET THAT WASN'T JUST
HELPING BLACK WOMEN OR BLACK PEOPLE, IT WAS HELPING ALL
AMERICANS, ALL AMERICANS WHO, OF COURSE, AT TIMES, ARE GOING TO
FALL AND NEED A SAFETY NET TO CATCH THEM, TO LIFT THEM BACK
UP.
THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT'S.
>> Stephen: NOW, YOU SAY THAT RACIST AND ANTIRACIST ARE NOT
FIXED IDENTITIES.
YOU'VE GOT AN AMAZING EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE WHO'S CLEARLY STEEPED IN
RACISM, WHO HAS BECOME AN ACTIVE ANTIRACIST.
TELL THE STORY OF THE DAVID DUKE'S GOD SON.
>> OH, YEAH, THREE YEARS AGO, I HAD THE PLEASURE OF MEETING
DEREK BLACK.
DEREK BLACK IS THE SON OF DON BLACK.
DON BLACK CREATED THE WEB SITE STORM FRONT, ONE OF THE MAJOR
PROGENITORS OF THE WHITE NATIONALIST MOVEMENT AND GROOMED
HIS SON DEREK TO BECOME ONE OF THE LEADERS OF THE WHITE
NATIONALIST MOVEMENT, TO REALLY BECOME LIKE A RICHARD SPENCER.
BUT WHEN DEREK BLACK WENT TO COLLEGE, HE STARTED -- SOME OF
HIS FRIENDS TOOK HIM TO THE SIDE AND STARTED CHALLENGING SOME OF
HIS IDEAS AND, ULTIMATELY, HE BEGAN CHANGING.
I UNDERSTAND HE READ ONE OF MY BOOKS ALONG THE WAY AND MANY
OTHER BOOKS ON RACISM AND NOW HE'S SOMEONE WHO'S STRIVING TO
BE YANTS RACIST.
SO SOMEONE WHO WAS RACED TO LEAD THE WHITE NATIONALIST MOVEMENT
IS NOW STRIVING TO BE ANTIRACIST.
>> Stephen: ONE OF THE CHANGES GOING ON NOW, ONE TO HAVE THE
CULTURAL CHANGES LIKE MONUMENTS BEING PULLED DOWN, PERHAPS
CHANGING NAMES OF ARMY BAILS NAMED AFTER CONFEDERATE
GENERALS, I HAVE FOUND OUT YOUR HIGH SCHOOL, YOU WENT TO
STONEWALL JACKSON HIGH SCHOOL?
VIRGINIA, AND THERE IS A PETITION, OVER 30,000
SIGNATURES, TO RENAME IT THE IBRAM X. KENDI HIGH SCHOOL.
I KNOW THIS DOESENTS COME FROM YOU, BUT THIS IS HAPPENING.
HOW DID THIS COME ABOUT AND HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?
>> WELL, I THINK, OBVIOUSLY, I'M HAPPY THEY'RE FINALLY CHANGING
THE NAME OF MY HIGH SCHOOL, SINCE IT WAS NAMED AFTER A
CONFEDERATE GENERAL, BUT I UNDERSTAND PEOPLE ARE PUSHING
FOR THIS, AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PUSHING FOR IT, I
UNDERSTAND, IS THE GREAT, GREAT-GRANDSON OF STONEWALL
JACKSON WHO I THINK IS A CLASS ACT, WARREN CHRISTIAN, AND HE'S
SHOWING THAT WE ARE LIKELY NOT BOUND BY OUR ANCESTORS, JUST
LIKE WE'RE NOT BOUND BY THE PAST HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY'S
RACISM.
WE CAN CREATE A DIFFERENT KIND OF COUNTRY THAT WILL RESPECT AND
VALUE BLACK LIVES AND THE LIVES OF PEOPLE OF COLOR.
>> Stephen: YOU'VE RELEASED ANOTHER BOOK CALLED "ANTIRACIST
BABY."
WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT ANTIRACISM FOR
BABIES?
>> I FIRST AND FOREMOST HAVE A VERY YOUNG DAUGHTER, AND I
WANTED TO HAVE A TOOL FOR HER.
I MEAN, I KNOW THAT, AT SIX MONTHS, BABIES ARE ALREADY
SEEING RACE.
I KNOW AT TWO YEARS OLD, SOME CHILDREN ARE ALREADY CONSUMING
OR BELIEVING IN RACIST IDEAS AND DISCERNING WHO TO PLAY WITH
BASED ON A KID'S SKIN COLOR, AND I ALSO KNOW THAT MANY PARENTS
BELIEVE THEIR KIDS ARE COLOR BLIND, BUT THEIR KIDS ARE
ANYTHING BUT, ACCORDING TO THE STUDIES.
AND WE SHOULD BE TEACHING OUR KIDS ABOUT RACISM AND BEING
ANTIRACIST EVEN BEFORE THEY CAN FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT
MEANS.
JUST LIKE WE TEACH THEM WHAT IT MEANS TO BE KIND, WHAT IT MEANS
TO LOVE, THESE ARE SOPHISTICATED CONCEPTS.
KINDNESS AND LOVE ARE WHAT WE TEACH OUR KIDS EARLY BECAUSE WE
VALUE BEING KIND AND LOVING, AND WE SHOULD VALUE BEING
ANTIRACIST, AND THE EARLIER WE TEACH OUR KIDS TO BE ANTIRACIST,
THE BETTER.
>> Stephen: AS I SAID, YOUR LEADING VOICE AGAINST RACISM IN
THE UNITED STATES.
YOUR WIFE IS AN E.R. DOCTOR AT A CHIRPS HOSPITAL IN D.C.
SHE'S FIGHTING COVID ON THE FRONT LINES.
WHAT GIVES THE TWO OF YOU HOPE?
BECAUSE YOU'RE BOTH PART OF A PRESENT VITAL STRUGGLE.
>> WELL, I THINK, FOR US, I THINK WHAT GIVES US HOPE IS THAT
YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE CHANGE IS POSSIBLE IN ORDER TO BRING IT
ABOUT.
SO WHEN SHE DIAGNOSES A YOUNG CHILD WHO HAS A SERIOUS ILLNESS,
SHE BELIEVES THAT THAT KID, THAT THAT CHILD CAN BE HEALED.
SHE HAS TO BELIEVE IT.
DOCTORS HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT.
JUST LIKE WHEN I DIAGNOSE AMERICA AS RACIST, WHEN I SAY
THAT EVEN AMERICA IS STAGE FOUR METASTATIC RACISM, I STILL
BELIEVE THAT AMERICA CAN FIGHT AGAINST THE ODDS AND STILL HEAL
ITSELF.
>> Stephen: WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
THANKS FOR THE MESSAGE AND THANKS FOR THE HOPE AND THANKS
FOR THE EXAMPLE.
>> OF COURSE, YES.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> Stephen: "ANTIRACIST BABY" AND "STAMPED: RACISM,
ANTIRACISM, AND YOU" ARE BOTH AVAILABLE NOW.
IBRAM X. KENDI, EVERYBODY.
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH COMEDIAN PATTON OSWALT.
THANKS AGAIN, SIR.