Lin-Manuel Miranda,
welcome to The Daily Social Distancing Show.
Thank you, sir. Always a pleasure.
So, everything you write turns to gold.
Everything you do seems to be a smash success.
You are now here on the show to talk about a book
about the film that many people are seeing as the vaccine
to the world that we've been living in for so long.
Feels like now the book about the successful movie
about the successful Broadway play
is now also going to be a success.
Tell me what this book is about, and most importantly,
if I read this book, will I be able to also make Hamilton?
-Can I do a Hamilton? -It's an instruction guide, precisely.
That's what I wanted to... Tell me about the book.
Find the underappreciated historical figure.
Add genre.
Um, no, I think the, um...
It's funny, actually-- today is the 14th anniversary
of us winning the Tony for Best Musical.
-Wow. -This musical has been in my life
since I was 19 years old, and so it's a lot to cover in a book.
My cowriter Jeremy says this is like The Godfather Part II
of the books, 'cause it goes before Hamilton.
It has, like, the stories before Hamilton,
including and after, because it's... it's so much about
meeting the collaborators that I would go on to work with,
uh, Hamilton on.
But also, it follows all these other journeys.
Like, Chris Jackson, who played Benny in the original show,
and plays Mister Softee opposite my Piragüero guy
in the movie, he met his wife when she was playing Nina
-Wow! -and he was playing Benny in the workshop.
I remember their chemistry read, uh, when we...
when, like, they held hands, but it wasn't in my script
that they hold hands.
So, like, I was like, "Oh, they're actually falling in love
in real time in my show."
Um, and so, like, so much of my life is bound up
in the journey of it, and so I do annotations
on the lyrics of all of the songs.
Jeremy sort of tells lots of stories.
Quiara, my cowriter, contributes essays,
uh, specifically about specific moments in the show
and transitions to the film.
Um, so we just try to cover as much as we can.
It's such an insane story that I feel like
can never be replicated.
Because here you are, a 19-year-old student
who is just, like, learning about this world,
and then you go like, "Man, I have this musical in my head,
and there's this thing I want to try and do, and..."
What I've loved to see is-is the journey,
because, like you said earlier about The Godfather
and the story before it, it's, like, you know, sometimes people
will experience your work in a nonlinear fashion.
You know, I'm one of those people.
So I wasn't around for In the Heights in New York
or anything, so now I experienced Hamilton first.
And I was like, "Wow, this is amazing,"
then they're like, "You know he did something before this,"
and you go and you go backwards
and then you come forwards with it.
What I've always found fascinating
is how you try and break the idea of what the thing is
and who's supposed to be in the thing.
You know, you did that with Hamilton.
I mean, people were freaking out at some point.
They were like, "Aaron Burr, Black man?
How can this be?" And, you know, and the sisters,
"But they're all of different races!"
But the story never broke.
I'd love to know where you thought to yourself:
You know what, we can tell stories
and we can include people and we can change the way
we present things in the world, and it will be successful.
Or did you doubt that it could be successful?
I think I doubted it at every phase,
but your belief in the idea has to be stronger
than what the world is proposing, right?
Like, your job as an artist is to write what's missing.
Like, I did not see a future for myself in musical theater.
-Right. -The other thing I'll add to, like,
that initial impulse back when I was in college,
was, like, it was the first Latin pop boom was happening.
-Oh, wow. -It was, like, Ricky Martin, like,
in leather pants singing "Cup of Life,"
Marc Anthony, who we all love,
but was singing in English for the first time.
It was Shakir... Like, Enrique Iglesias.
And I remember being like, "Oh, all those guys are really hot.
I'm... That's not gonna be me, either."
(both laugh)
Like, again, there's another lane
that is not open to me. (laughs)
Um, so, again,
it's about, like, writing what's missing.
Um, you know, with-with Hamilton,
I-I honestly was surprised that people were surprised
about the casting because it was a hip-hop and R & B musical.
Like, you can tell very clearly, like,
-that's my inspiration for what I'm pulling for. -Yeah. Yeah.
So if it was an all-white cast, you'd think I messed up.
(chuckles): Like, someone... someone messed up along the way.
-Right. -Um, and, so,
you know, with In the Heights, like, I...
Again, like, it is...
It was just, like, how many of us can I get on the board?
Like, that's-that's the goal.
It's like, we're all gonna be in this thing,
and can we tell stories that are not about, um,
like, Latinos from the '50s with knives in their hands?
-Right. -I just...
Which was... is incredibly overrepresented
in musical theater, weirdly.
(laughing)
Like, '50s gangsters.
Oh, man. That's hilarious,
'cause in South Africa, that was me.
For, like, most of my TV, anything...
Anything that everyone would ask me to do in South Africa
was, like, the stereotype of people who look like me.
They called them the "colored gangster."
That's what they would always say. They're like,
"All right, Trevor, you're gonna be the gangster."
And then the next thing, they'd be like,
"Trevor, there's a new role.
You're gonna play a reformed gangster."
And then they'd be like, "For this one, you're...
You're looking at someone who might be a gangster."
-It became, like, a thing. -"You're a priest,
but you used to be a gangster." (chuckles)
Yeah, it was always gang-related in some way, shape or form.
Um, even-even though
you are somebody who's always challenged these things,
even though you've always str...
You've always strived to write people in
and create these stories,
you haven't been immune from criticism.
And-and what was really interesting and beautiful to me
was your response to some of the criticism that you got
for In the Heights in terms of colorism.
You know, some people said, "Hey, Lin, we love your work.
"We love what you're doing. But, man,
"it feels like there are so many Afro-Latinos
"who-who are not... who are not represented here.
"You know, got all these Afro-Latinos
who could be in the movie and who aren't in the movie."
And you responded, and it was interesting.
You didn't say, like, "Oh, I can do whatever I want.
I... You know, this is my story, my world."
You're like, "Hey, we're listening."
And it was interesting that you-you basically said,
"I'm trying to make this world, and I can do better."
And I felt defensive on your behalf, funny enough.
I was like, "Lin does so much!
"We have Black people singing on Broadway!
"Why are you doing this to Lin?
You're tearing down one of our own!"
But you... I-I honestly would love to know
how you approach that criticism
and-and what you think you could do better,
because you responded to it so meaningfully.
Yeah. Well, again, like, I don't...
I can't legislate how people feel.
Like, again, all I want
is for this neighborhood to feel seen,
and if there's a segment of it
that doesn't feel seen and they're saying that, like,
you have to acknowledge that and let it in.
And, you know, all-all I can do
is-is learn from it and promise to do better.
And, again, there's so much Afro-Latinidad in the movie.
The beef really was specifically dark-skinned Afro-Latinos
in leading roles, in those leading principal roles.
And, like, why can't in this movie...
You know, and I... and I totally understand that,
and I... and I receive it,
and-and I just have to do better on-on the next one.
But, again, like, that is, um...
We took so much love and care and filmed on location,
-and-and, so, like, it's-it's... -Yeah.
Like, I-I'm happy to, like, take the learning from it
and-and bring that to the next one
and-and also hold space to be proud of the thing we made
that has been half my life.
So, like, I have to be able to hold both those things
because they're both true.
Like, you are hearing from this community
that feels underrepresented, that is hurting.
-The paradox, yeah. -And...
And, like, we made this thing, and I'm proud of this thing,
and we don't get to make things like this much.
So, like, I-I have to just be able to hold it all.
As-as a creative,
I-I wonder if that is something
that becomes just a space that's occupated in your...
occupied in your mind, or does it become a burden?
Or how do you prevent it from becoming a burden?
You know, like, how-how do you live in a space where you go,
"No, I'm-I'm always trying to tell the best story.
"I'm always trying to have everybody involved,
"but I'm not trying to be, like, you know, specific
"about, like, 'You need to be involved
because I'm trying to paint a certain type of color'"?
How-how do you do that as Lin? Or do you think
it's just naturally learning for you as a person?
I think it's naturally learning for me as a person.
I think that one of the things I've learned,
and I learned this in Hamilton,
and I learned this with Heights...
And you learn it... Listen, and you learn it
because of the success of the thing.
-Like, that's also the thing. -Right. Right.
Like, I'm incredibly lucky and privileged
to even get to make things for a living.
I was a substitute teacher for half this book.
(laughs) Like, that was most of the time.
Um, but I also think that, like, there's a reality
of, like, when you make something,
you're creating a frame.
And the folks who are not in that frame
are gonna tell you, "Hey, we're not in the frame."
And, so, you go... You have to acknowledge that and go...
And the next time I make a frame,
like, keep that in mind.
And that's sort of all you can do,
like, as you move from thing to thing.
You know, one of the most beautiful explanations I got
was, um, from one of... one of, um, our writers.
And she said to me... I was like...
We were talking about this whole thing and she said to me,
she said, "You know, what's really interesting here, Trevor,
"is I don't think anybody is angered at Lin
"because they think he did something.
"I think it's because they know
he's the one person who will listen."
Because for so many Afro-Latinos,
they've lived in this world where,
whether it's Telemundo or Univision
or, you know, like, any of the telenovelas,
-there's a certain type... -Oh, the telenovelas
-are cultic. -Exactly.
It's like, "This is what Latino looks like,
and it cannot be anything else."
And they were like, "But Lin is the one person who will hear,
and Lin is the one person who will listen."
-And that was a beautiful thing for me to understand. -Oh, well,
that means the world. That means the world to me, honestly,
because I-I will... Like, I am listening,
and I do want to do better with each project,
and I want to just keep having at bats
and-and having the chance to look at that.
Hey, man, I'll tell you now, I will support you all the way.
We keep putting you at bat,
you keep hitting that thing out of the park.
We make more, we enjoy more, we create more,
and we celebrate you every single time.
Thank you for being here, my friend.
-Thank you. It was my pleasure. -Good luck
for the rest of the movie. Good luck for the book.
And, uh, yeah, man. Uh, I'll...
I hope I'll see you at my Hamilton part two.
I'm just gonna find who the person is
that, like, no one really knows.
Underrepresented but, like...
That historical figure. I'm just gonna use all your notes.
Listen, Burr went to Mexico and tried to become emperor there.
-There is a story there. I don't... -I'm gonna find it.
I'm gonna fi... Maybe I'll-I'll fi...
? Desmond Tutu. ? I've got it. I've got it.
? Desmond Tutu. ?
I've got it. I've got it. I've got it. I've got...
-I'm gonna go write something right now. -Follow the thread.
-Follow the thread. What's missing? -(laughs)
Lin, look after yourself, my friend.
-All right. Thank you, Trevor. -Take care.