so the other day I interviewed Joe METEC
who is a tech youtuber / a former data
scientist who worked at Facebook and
BuzzFeed and in this part of the
interview we talked about his transition
from data science to software
engineering as well as his life and
career in general so let's just dive
into it so my first question is I
understand that you decided to switch
from data science to sovereign Jim
mm-hmm
could you tell us why he decided to make
a switch yeah so I think I think I
reached the point where well I guess it
gets a little bit personal like when
when I was working at Facebook there was
a time where I kind of just like burnt
out because of like videos and work and
and the reason was there's like two
reasons I'll do the work first for the
work it was because like it was getting
like a little bit harder we did a
project that was a bit more a bit more
stressful because like there's huge
implications for what we did and like it
like monetary implications so and then I
also like switched teams like switch sub
teams and there were a lot of reorg on
on my team so that kind of made like
things not super stable and then for
videos I think I was at a point where I
felt like I was too pressured to do it
like I added too much artificial
pressure to myself saying like oh I
should make this video at this time
every week for example at like Thursdays
but but the issue of that is especially
when you're working with sponsors or you
have friends or you have a life it's
kind of hard to meet the deadline
exactly at that time right because
there's a lot of factors so then I think
at one point I just got like burnt out a
little bit and then and then I kind of
took a break but that break allowed me
to think about my life in a more
holistic way and then because I had more
time to think about it I was like huh
like maybe data science is not right for
me maybe video is not right for me you
know I started asking a lot of questions
and then at that point I thought okay in
five years or imagine if I want to work
on something for five years do I want to
be a really good data scientist like
analytics or do I want to be really good
as
for engineer I was like software
engineering sounds cooler because you
can actually build stuff and I thought
to myself like imagine in the in a
situation where I had to work for a
start-up or I want to do my own startup
what would be more useful me being able
to build the product myself or me being
able to analyze like data myself but the
thing is for me I think like when you're
doing a start-up it's it's very easy to
get insights from the data in the
beginning because all you want or you
care about is like what's the retention
of the users how many new users are
getting already using this feature
nothing complicated right so gaining
more skills for data science doesn't
translate well to being a very effective
worker and at a startup right so I
thought being a software engineering
like being a software engineer might be
more like maybe more fitting to me and
then the other reason is just like I
feel like I want to build things because
I've always been like that
and I also had a CS degree so I might as
well you know use it yeah right so it
sounds like your like ultimate goal long
term goal is to do a start-up or worker
starter back then yes now like I'm not
that sure anymore because like cuz uh
like you know I've grown I've changed
and then yes like if I can do a startup
yes but it's not my ultimate goal but I
do think about it sometimes like it's
just in case you know in case I want to
do it right yeah I think another thing
you mentioned is that you like building
things because you maybe tell us a
little bit more about yeah yeah so um
like not into software related realm
when I used to be when I was a kid I
used to play these games and sometimes
they're like these mini games were
thinning games or you could like build
things and it's pretty useless like it's
not even part that the normal story like
for example Kingdom Hearts you could
build like your spaceship and stuff like
that
and I just really like building that
spaceship and then just see I don't know
it's just like yeah I usually like
playing with like Legos I used to like
I used to like tinkering with things
there was something called like
rainmeter
it sits on Windows is where you could
like make your own widgets on your
desktop and I just like to make things
nice you know are like useful and yeah
so I think in my mind oh also videos
right like videos is also something that
you kind of build and create cuz yeah so
and I also like Photoshop I feel like
you know like making new images out of
like multiple images and stuff like that
so I thought to myself like you know I
was always like a builder kind of a guy
may be suffering cheering this for me
yeah so you felt like
indentifies you weren't it you weren't
doing enough building yeah no you don't
you don't build anything at all because
I especially what I was doing yeah you
nothing you do is really permanent you
usually just do something do an analysis
or basically do something such that you
could convince other people to build
stuff but you never actually build your
own thing especially at a big company
where data engineering is already all
done all the pipelines are done all you
have to do is just get some data and
like spit out insights like yeah you
don't you don't build anything that
sounds pretty frustrating for you
it depends cuz like some part of me do
like doing analysis and like
understanding the product inside out
because I really like to spend time and
understand users so that was fun and but
yes it sucks that there's nothing that I
can show for right I can't be like oh
yeah I built that or like I did this you
know so yeah so I think that's the
reason I see mm-hmm so it sounds like
you liked some of the things that you
were doing as a Luna scientist oh yeah
for sure but they were like these other
things that you missed
right right right okay and when you say
now you took a break what do you mean by
that well like a couple of weeks yeah I
took um I think I took two weeks off
like of work and then I also
oh no I still kept I kept making videos
also but then at one point I stopped
making videos for like like months and
then and then I also went to work but
then I also like took a lot of vacation
during work so I was literally doing
like nothing right kind of like no you
know yes I was doing like nothing so
that's the break that was taking all
right so you know and then eventually
you decided to take the leave or take
the leap and leave your job pretty much
yeah
what was that process like yeah so yeah
so at first like um I didn't think about
leaving my job directly I was thinking
about like oh maybe I could switch teams
you know cuz because maybe the problem
isn't the job maybe it's like a team or
something like that so I thought about
switching teams I thought about doing
like internal transfer to software
engineering and stuff like that and
Indiana like the the one that would make
me the most money would be if I switch
companies to do software so that's like
why I chose that and I just want to say
like it's like usually I wouldn't quit
my job before getting like another job
in hand because I think that's pretty
risky especially for someone if if
you're like on a visa for example then
you have a limited time before you get
like kicked out of the country so I
would advise against that the reason
that I did it is because I was pretty
confident in terms of like because of my
connections because of like am i
studying and I did study during during
the time I was still working on Facebook
and I was still like practicing coding
and stuff like that and I did do a few
interviews right I just having like
accepted an offer yet so I was pretty
confident that I won't get a job in a
short amount of time so that's why I was
able to quit kind of early on and the
reason why I quit pretty early was
because I kind of want to start my
vacation like pretty early
Yeah right mm-hmm and you know you
mentioned that you started practicing
software engineering interviews hmm how
did you prepare for them write the code
yeah so the first thing I did was like
yeah I just started like opening leak
code I bought a premium membership and
then I just you know started practicing
easy questions first and I just did them
grinded them I did like one or two per
day because I wanted to take it slow
right because I was still working at
Facebook but I'll take it
I took it slow so I just did like one or
two questions a day and and then right
before an interview I would do a lot of
them I would do a lot of them beforehand
and then I also bought like elements of
programming interview so I that
complimented my my leak coding sessions
and then also one thing I did was some
people people told me to well like I
read on I read blind a lot and they told
me to practice like whiteboarding
unfortunately I don't have a whiteboard
so I just took like a piece of paper I
take a pen and then usually I try to
solve it on a paper first and then write
on a computer and then yeah that's it
would you like run the code oh yes right
okay yeah on the code you can run the
code so yes I would write it like on
paper and now I would just copy it on
the code and then I would run it and
then see if it's good or not I see yeah
and then for system design I just read a
lot have I read something called rocking
the system design interview where they
have like these simulation questions
were like oh try to build Instagram or
like build Twitter and now I would read
how they did it you know like load
balancers blah blah blah and stuff like
that databases and then whenever I don't
understand something they have a link to
click into like different database type
like like sequel database
sorry relational versus non relational
and then you just get more and more
knowledge and then that's how you can
answer these questions yeah would you
recommend somebody else go through the
same path and use the same resources
yeah I think so I think it worked it was
working pretty well for me yeah nice
and so you you started preparing for
those interviews you left a job you get
prepared for you know those interviews
and how was that can you tell us about
like how the whole process was like to
interview you numbers and maybe
negotiate forever right yeah so I'll
talk about like a few interviews but
basically how it looks like it's like
once you feel like you're pretty
confident in your coding skills then
what you do is yeah you start you start
applying but that usually what happened
for me was that I got kind of lazy so I
just kind of I applied and then they
tell me like okay let's schedule a phone
screen or on-site and then that's like a
deadline for me it's and that's when I
start I should be pairing anyway so they
yeah they do phone screens usually and
then you prepare for that you do a few
coding questions and then once you do
this phone screen if if you pass it then
they usually put you into like an
on-site and on-site interviews and
usually during on-site interviews
there's like five or six interviews it's
super long one of the longest one I've
had was like from like 9:00 a.m. to like
5:00 p.m. I think it was like six
interviews and one lunch interview it
was so freaking long like my throat
started to hurt I don't know
towards the end yeah so then yeah so
then after the on-site you know you wait
and you really and you hope that the
recruiter sends you a congratulation
email and then if they do that's awesome
for some companies it might be slower
some companies might be faster and then
usually what they do is that they might
ask you like well before the interview
they might ask you're like oh really
what kind of compensation do you expect
to have usually I would say like say
something like higher than what you
currently have just so that you can you
know at least get a boost and then yeah
and then they also ask you like oh do
you are you interviewing with other
people they always ask that the reason
why they ask that is because if you are
they might expedite the process they
might make it faster and then once you
get that information and you say that
you have an offer that's where they give
you the numbers they usually give you
like the base compensation bonus and
then also equity
and yeah so you get that number
sometimes or I should most of the time
you can just ask for more even even if
you have like no counter offers for some
reason like they would just be okay with
this don't increase it but another
strategy that's really good is if you
have a counter offer from another
company so you see which one has the
higher compensation and you bring that
to the one with the lower compensation
and then don't like match you if you're
lucky they might even like increase it
to more than match yeah but usually they
don't do that they just like match it
because there's no reason to yeah and
then yeah so like a little tip companies
that are like well known that most
people want to go work for them they
will always match and then for companies
who need more engineers and they don't
have the brand capital as much they
might give you like more more
compensation to try to compensate for
like the brand so what you can do is
that yeah you could like understand
which companies actually pay more and
then you apply for them and then you get
their high offer and then make the big
company like not the big companies the
one of the good brands so like match it
yes does that make sense yeah it makes
sense so about the compensation that
those recruiters give you because you
get into like specific numbers oh yeah
sure I don't mind um so yeah I'll talk
about like like two different offers
I've had and then okay so one of the
offer I remember was like around aw crap
I guess I don't remember to break down
but I think it was like it's like 170 to
180 total compensation right and then I
just asked for more and then I was able
to get like 200 like 200,000 total
conversation right yeah and then I and
then I got an offer from another company
that company paid more cuz like their
total compensation was like it was like
- 220 or 230 so I just brought that to
the other company and then the other
company was able to yeah match it to
like 230 okay
total compensation and then I brought
that back to the other company and then
that company was able to increase it by
like 10k so I was like 240 or whatever
and then I brought that back to the
other company and then the other company
was able to match to 40 and then I just
took it yeah so it was basically like a
big brand company versus a company wish
got a smaller company yeah I'd say it's
don't big ish basically both of them are
public I guess right
no mm-hmm okay the next question I have
is so you mentioned that you know you
you felt burnt out and a little bit
depressed but what do you think made you
burnt out I haven't depressed yeah so
yeah it was the combination of like
stress for my videos and work basically
basically what I felt like was you know
every time I went home I had a hard day
at work it's not like I could relax
because I have to think about videos
again so I think because of that I also
put artificial stress on me always
looking at the metrics like how many
views I'm getting oh no I'm losing or
like I'm not getting as much subscribers
anymore so that took a toll on like my
mental health and then that's why I
burnt out and and I decided to take a
break after that now right and how did
you get through this tough time
yeah I I think it was actually really
hard because like when you burnt out or
then I got kind of like really sad at
one point and then it's kind of like a
vicious circle right because you're sad
you have like lower confidence and then
you don't do as well like like you don't
do as well just socializing you know
things become harder you don't want to
socialize you don't want to exercise you
don't want to go out right and then but
I read a lot of things online they told
me to just move the first thing you want
to do is make sure that you're not just
always in bed because that's very
dangerous right so they told me to just
move even if you don't want to so the
first thing I did was like okay whenever
I have time for example I was lead
coding to whenever I don't want to lead
code anymore
I would just like run outside
thirty minutes or if I don't want to you
know work at work dennah which is run
outside sat Lisa gave me exercised yeah
so I was just making sure that at least
if my physical health is good then
everything else comes second so I just
prioritize my physical health and then I
think that really helped because it just
made me more clear my mind and then
slowly but surely I focus on the small
wins in my life and then I realized like
okay this is actually not that bad
you know I always think about you know
back then if I think about my life right
now I'd be pretty happy with that and
then just being more realistic with your
the view on your life because when
you're sad like it's it feels like a
cloud and you have like a bad perception
of everything yeah so you just have to
break that cycle
I see so I was basically exercise moving
your body
oh yeah like hang out friends even if
you don't want to even if you don't want
to yeah I think so because like you
don't want to do anything when you're
sad but like you just have to force
yourself to do it like if you do feel
good afterwards then you know that it
was worth than you mm-hmm okay so now
you're feeling much better
mMmmm yeah okay so now that you're sort
of back on your feet
mm-hmm what do you think you're gonna do
with your channel yeah so I think with
my channel I'm not gonna put as much
emphasis on my channel as before cuz
back then I was like oh my god I'm gonna
be youtuber you know I put too much
pressure on myself now it's kind of like
okay I want to interview a lot of people
because one I get to learn a lot from
them and I could be more casual about it
I could show Who I am
like for real cuz like sometimes I do
feel like I you know on my videos I'm
artificially like trying to be someone
else or something like that right now I
kind of just want to be more myself and
show Who I am for reals so yeah so I
think there's gonna be like more
interviews there's gonna be more me
talking to the camera and then hopefully
when I have time
kind of want to restart like the startup
series you know like I guess I could
talk about one thing that's that I
haven't told anyone but like I was
thinking of season 2 a startup series it
won't be called startup anymore it would
be like boot camp where you know I you
know cuz my start failed and then what
I'll do is I want to go into coding boot
camp to get a job later oh yeah like
movie series now that cool and it would
be like anime themed cuz you know do you
watch anime yeah so you know like your
academia yeah yeah basically kind of
like that you know the boot camp would
be Kalaheo
alright I have two more questions left
the first one is is there anything that
you've changed your mind about within
the past few years um yeah I I think
just like my values have changed like
back then it was always like trying to
reach for the next milestone you're like
it could be subscribers on monetary and
stuff like that I think the biggest
difference now is trying to understand
that you have to have like values that
you really care about that or like goals
that you don't just reach and be done
with it but goals that make you a better
person like for example you want to be a
more honest person or you want you know
to have strengthened your relationships
if like everyone and stuff like that
things that you can't reach and say like
oh now what I'm done but things that
even working towards it it's something
valuable and fruitful for you I am are
those like actually your goals yeah I
think so well like one of like my goals
is just to have as many stories to tell
as possible it sounds silly but it kind
of makes sense because I you know like I
still want to you know succeed in life
because if you succeed in life you have
more stories to tell you have more
freedom to do a lot of different things
because having a lot of stories to tell
or having a lot of memory anchors in
your life it makes you feel like your
life is longer because imagine if you
just worked out a job for two years and
you didn't do anything else then you
kind of don't remember your days anymore
because nothing special happened yeah
but if you've had a lot of different
anchor
in your life like for example even
sometimes negative anchors like oh you
broke up with X then yeah then you kind
of remember but at least there's a lot
of things that's happening your lives
right wow that's kind of like my life
philosophy yeah that's pretty profound
actually my other question what's gonna
be do you have any like philosophy but
it sounds like oh yeah that's it mm-hmm
okay so that wraps up this part of the
interview in case you want to watch the
part of this interview where we talked
about data science you know about what
it's like to be a data scientist and how
to become one I'm gonna put a link to
that video in the description below and
thank you as always for watching my
videos I will see you guys in the next
one