Have as our special guest and extraordinary Australian lawyer, human rights advocate, who was born in a refugee camp in Ethiopia and is now the director of the CIA, Zelman Cowen, Centre, Myrdal.
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OK, students, thanks for joining me. And today we have an extraordinary guest, Australian lawyer, human rights advocate, who was born in a refugee camp in Ethiopia and is now the director of the Zelman Cowen Centre. Nyadol newen, thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you very much for having me. Yeah, thanks for very much for the invitation.
Well, firstly, congratulations on your appointment as the new director of the size Allen Cowan, Centre, are you enjoying the gig so far? You're probably getting your feet under the table. Can you tell us a bit about the centre and your vision for the role?
Yeah. So the center focuses are on.
So the intersection between low and cultural diversity and some of our programs that we run at the moment are building up the capacity of community organizations and leadership of community organizations to be able to effectively run their organizations wealth. So that sort of governance training and but then we also have a part of the university part of the center that does with the deals with research. So there was a number of research projects that were being led by the former.
Director Kathy Leister. And then we have our oration. So that's more the thought leadership. I think you know, for lack of a better word. And this year, I am really hoping to be able to bring one of the judges who came from Afghanistan to deliver the oration for this year.
And so those are some of the stuff we're working on in terms of the direction, I'm very much at the beginning stages of thinking about the strategic direction of the Center for the next three to five years.
And I think we we we're still going to maintain our core themes of research, community engagement and awareness raising in terms of working with the legal industry about what issues communities are facing and how the legal industry or the legal sector can respond as well as some thought leadership.
Sort of projects and one of the things we're looking at is probably running a running a series on the question of data and data power. And now data is going to be a big a big part of government making decisions and who gets seen in the way we collect data and who doesn't and what does that are suffering to mean. So it's it's sort of having the same conversation but in a different context. So that's yeah.
Sounds sounds great. Your you've had a an extraordinary upbringing. Background. You've had a very traumatic childhood. You're experience in refugee camps, fleeing conflicts are being separated from your mother, your father passing away. You arrived here as an 18 year old in 2005 without a cent. New country had to learn language and customs and the like.
Yet against all the odds, you actually excelled in your studies. Graduating with AJ at Melbourne Law School. Do you reckon your background, your early experiences helped you develop? I guess a strong determination and build resilience to enable you to go on and complete your law.
I think yes and no. I think, I think I I think because of what I maybe survive, I I had the belief that I could survive things in the future or things that I faced or maybe I could look at what I was facing at the moment and think this is not as bad as what happened in the past. So I think definitely.
It influenced perspective. I had a much more.
A a deeper perspective about issues and as a result could hang on for longer when things seems difficult and then you country.
I also think it gave me a big sense of hunger. Like I I I knew that I wanted to get things done because I was quite aware, vividly aware of just the as opposed to just the chance by which I got that opportunity to be able to go.
After the state, because I was, you know, just a few years ago, I was in a refugee camp, and now I could, you know, I could pursue further studies when 2-3 maybe five years ago. It seems completely impossible. So I think that gives me much more sense of urgency and hunger to do things. But I also think that with time, I've also. I can also now see.
The impact of what trauma does and and as much as you and and and also how things like resilience and achievements are in them.
Self sort of coping mechanisms to deal with trauma and to find meaning outside of what your life might have been confined to by the traumatic experience you've you've had. And I'm now beginning to appreciate that that's also a very narrow way to live life, you know, and that life, you know, trying to find ways of expanding my life, that it's not just so much about constantly trying to achieve things and constantly trying to aim for things, but also looking at trying to rebuild a sense of an inner self and a sense of.
More you know, a person that is satisfied with with who they are and their comfort. And I think that's a lifelong process that we all have to deal with, whether or not we've gone through trauma. But I think trauma shapes it in a very different way. So I would say yes or no.
Sure. And well, you're also and I don't know where you find the time, but you're also now chair of the Harmony Alliance, which is a not for profit working to empower migrant and refugee women and give them a voice to advance their interests, both well economically, socially, culturally and politically. Can you tell us a little bit about that role and the intersection, if any, that that has with your legal career?
Yeah. Well, my that that role is one of the national buddies. So how many alliance is one of the national bodies, women, national bodies. And we focus on migrant refugee women. And and I took on that role about two years ago after Maria Demopolis, who was the former chair left and one of the reasons I I took the role was because I liked the advocacy aspect of it, the fact that it.
It it sort of listened to the voice of the community or community of migrant and refugee women and and bring those decisions and those discussions to the forefront of decision makers. And so we were part of conversations around the new plan and development around our national response to domestic violence against women and children. So it it gives migrant and refugee women through the vessel of how many alliance and opportunity to engage in national conversations. I don't think to be honest, I don't think there's a really a lot of connection between.
A lot of the advocacy work I've done in terms of.
Umm Antiracism work or anti extremism work? Or how many alliance work because I worked as a commercial practitioner predominantly at annual block and and in a way that was a very strategic decision. I knew that I was always interested in social justice and I and I knew that if I ended up working in that space as well, it was going to be just too much to sort of.
Volunteer in it and also work in it. It and I, and I also wanted to explore different parts of my identity and my sense of interest. And so I I practice commercial litigation, so there's not a lot of crossover.
Umm, only in terms of sort of the transferable skills, I think the ability to communicate, the ability to write those are definitely skills that I've I've been able to utilize in my advocacy work and the and the majority of the training for that skill occurred in the legal, the legal sector.
And So what was it? And do you remember at what stage in your journey? What was it the triggered? What stage did your of your journey did you decide? I wanna do law.
I decided that when I was in the in Turkina refugee camp, I think I was about 13 or 14. I was in the equivalent via 10, I think in Kenya and I knew I wanted to be a lawyer. I was always interested in, in, in, in, in law or not always, but was interested in law. So I I I recall giving a public speech and saying I'm going to be a lawyer one day and people actually laughed.
Which made sense because it seems highly unlikely that a refugee kid was somehow going to be, you know, a lawyer. One day just seems really far fetched.
And yeah, but it was it was a good dream to hold on to.
He gave me a sense of direction.
Fantastic. And and you've been a an extraordinary advocate for refugees, migrant and indigenous rights for quite some time. And some would say that Australia's treatment of these groups hasn't and isn't likely to change much.
I I've heard you say in the past that multiculturalism.
Is all about living with each other without fear of each other.
Do you think things will change in the immediate future and and how do you stay positive in the face of the many setbacks that you've had?
Stop.
Tonight. But I also know that that's not that, that that is not for me. The reasons for why I engage in this space at all and I don't think that should be the reason for why anybody should engage. I think your job.
Or all in our different capacity in our talents and our ability is to do what we can in the time that we're given in the, you know, in the society that we're in and whether that changes things in the future or not. That is not really up to us. I think our point is to try and do the work now. So for me it's it's it's, it's, it's a matter of personal duty. I think that you know it's the way I I would I would want the society that I live in to be like is the way that I would like to be treated. So that's the personal.
This.
Small aspect.
Umm and and and and. Also because I have children. So I do want to a better future for them. So yeah, I don't know if things are going to change, but I think despite whether or not they will change, I'll, I'll try to do my part and I'll encourage others to continue to do that part because if we don't, then they're guaranteed to not change at all. I think the other thing is the other thing is just because just because one of the reason I think you know, it's not a very good measure of why you should do anything is whether things will change. It's because even if things change, they're not guaranteed to remain the same, I think.
Before this interview, we're talking about, you know, the leak from the US Supreme Court about the potential overturn of Roe and Wade. You know, this five years ago, people would have thought that's a completely settled law in one of the most stable democracies in the world, and that this is not something that we would see significant reversal of. But here we are. We're potentially in a highly politicized court now in a highly politicized and partisan environment, in a weakening democracy.
We're now beginning to see how, you know, institutions are maybe flowed faltering, even though other people might seem it as a win. So maybe for conservative it's a win. So I think that's another reason why we should do our best with the time we have is because if what we win will require another fight for the next generation of young people, I have to say at the moment I'm not very hopeful. I think there's a lot of things in the world that seems rightly hopeless. You know, it's that they're actually invasion of Ukraine.
For me personally, the kind of conversations and responses to other Ukrainian war that that made made the experience for me.
A sort of an experience that exemplify the value we still give to human beings based on that race. So you can see the disparity between the reaction to Ukraine and the reaction to Syria, for example, and how that emphasizes a narrative that we still have raises a fundamental functioning way of how we prioritize whose need. So that was another reason for a sense of hopelessness. And then you see what is happening in the United States and what that suggests about the potential of stable democracies to almost crumble between our owner.
Before our eyes. So there's a lot to be. There's a lot to be concerned about, but I think.
But I also think that should really just give us more.
Uh, sort of. Just just that should confirm to us the nearest why more and more people should engage in the fight for the things that they they really believe in what they the the fight for climate justice or is the fight for racial justice or is the fight for indigenous rights because.
If we had taken it for granted in the past, that somehow we've warned these battles for the future. Now is the time that show us that we haven't, so we need as many young people and as many conscious citizens to stand up and keep pushing because, yeah, so that I think that's my position. I hope it answers the question.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot to be concerned about. Which means a lot to fight for. So solutely makes sense. I I guess my last question to you is one for our students, based on your experience based on your background, based on your journey, if you had one or two bits of advice for our students who you wanna do work that makes a difference, what would that advice be?
Yeah.
Umm.
One that I think it's useful, just look after yourself. I think people who care about.
Social justice.
Umm, Kate deeply about the worlds, and that can be heavy psychological burden to carry around. So I think it's important to look after yourself and look after your mental health and look after your physical health because I've had to learn that the hard way. I think it doesn't seem like an obvious one, but I think for me, the way I've kind of learned the amount of overwork that I've sort of put myself through. So I think that's just a foundational thing and the.
And the the, the, the, the, the second big issue is in you know, find something you're passionate about and keep going and keep fighting for it. Keep pushing for it. Convince the people you care about to join it.
Because it's a very strange time to be alive. I kind of feel just just the amount of the amount of things that are going wrong across the world in and then when you think about the fact that we are even facing the issue of climate change.
That we haven't even begun to address, you know, so there's so many things that are happening.
That requires more and more people to determine, so pick a course and keep fighting because we need we need more people out there that cares deeply about the world and where it should be. It should be headed. And don't don't wait for someone else to do it, because most of the time you are the person that other people are also waiting for.
Not all. Can I say it's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you and students. There's some great advice there. Yes, there's lots to be concerned about, but that means there's a lot to fight for. Be kind to yourself along the journey, find something you're passionate about, but don't give up. Just keep fighting because the world needs you. We all need you. Can I say nyadol? Thank you so much for for joining us. And thanks for giving our students that great advice.
Thank you so much. Thank you and good luck.
Alright.
Sarah Collins, stop.