Luke Malpass: Prime minister thank you for joining us for this end of year chat.
At the end of last year we sat down, I think at the other end of this room, and
you sort of were tentatively were hoping that 2021 would be an easier year, than 2020.
Jacinda Ardern: I'm glad I was tentative on that front.
Malpass: How have you found this year?
Ardern: No doubt I feel the same about this year as I'm sure every other New Zealander does.
It's been a hard year.
And, from our perspective, it certainly had patches that have been a bit rough.
But when we look at where we're finishing,
you know, it's still hard to go past those measures that are really meaningful for us
About what did we want to achieve by the end of the year,
how did we want to make sure that we finish the year
And when you look at the fact that we still, in the OECD,
have the lowest number of deaths of any other country
lowest number of cases in the OECD, and that tells us it was rough,
yes, but we got through and we got through with out people.
We also said it would be the year of the vaccine and it has been.
I mean, the results I had hoped we could achieve,
but I'm not sure I would've quite believed if you had told me
that we would finish the year with rates as high as this,
I'm not sure I would've quite believed that.
Malpass: It's interesting, obviously vaccine rates are
very high, still going up, which must be pleasing for you.
Ardern: It is.
Malpass: At the same time, the fact that you had to mandate it in the way that it
has been mandated in some areas, how comfortable have you been with that?
Because we all have to make decisions that perhaps, you know, some bad choices.
Ardern: Well the first thing I'd say is,
I wouldn't want the mandate painted as a thing that got the vast majority of people vaccinated
Because in those areas where we've used them, that hasn't been the case.
It's nudged an additional number over the line, but not the majority.
The majority went and got vaccinated first before those mandates came in.
Those mandates have been about giving people the
assurance whether they're going through the health system or the education system
That everyone is vaccinated.
I would probably summarise a lot of the decisions
this year as being between - and I've heard Minister Hipkins say this too
between a hard decision and another hard decision. There haven't been almost any easy ones
And in all of them, you would've preferred not to have been in the situation where you
are having to make them in the first place, but that is Covid-19 and that is definitely Delta.
I've had equally, I've had people thank us for those. I've had teachers in schools
say thank you for making that decision for us.
And so I do sense a relief in some people that we've taken those hard decisions.
Malpass: Do you have a sense of like, in an ideal world, how long you would like to have
mandates in place, or like you would like to need to have it in place in some way?
Ardern: We've also been, I think, relatively narrow about where we've wanted to apply them.
I look at other places .. even Victoria, an extensive list of areas where they've mandated.
We've right from the outset we wanted to really have a clear rationale for where we've used them,
because it is a big call to say to an entire sector we want all of you to be vaccinated.
So we wanted to be able to hand on heart say this is the right place in the right way
because this keeps people safe.
And so we've, I think, been quite considered about all those decisions.
Would we've preferred not to had to make them? Would
we have preferred that everyone just got vaccinated in those sectors themselves?
Of course, you know, but the reality is those hard calls had to be made.
Malpass: What have you found the hardest?
Ardern: Hmmm, there's a lot to choose from [laughs]
Delta has been incredibly hard, you know, and I think
transitioning out of the elimination strategy was hard.
Because there was such a simplicity to it and there was a unity that came from it too,
we all knew what we were doing and why and it was hard to disagree with that strategy
but Delta made it impossible to hold on to.
Malpass: Do you think, how far along on the, I guess, the journey from elimination
to what the new world was going to be .. how successful had you been in?...
Ardern: I think it takes time and adjustment. It was an adjustment for all of us.
Of course, we always knew elimination was not a forever strategy.
It was important while the world was waiting for extra tools to keep people safe
It was important while the world was working on vaccinations, because we had no other way
to look after people other than those strict public health measures.
So the plan always was, once you've got other tools you do things differently.
But at the same time, it wasn't to say that the transition wasn't hard, it really was.
I remember going through a process where I was just realising as we were moving through
that outbreak, some of the things we were seeing in the way that Delta was behaving
that it was harder for us to grab cases before they passed it onto
others because the window was getting shorter
that was when we were starting to question whether or not we were going to be able to maintain it.
I do think Aucklanders perhaps came to terms with that very, perhaps a little more quickly
than the rest of the country and that's natural, they were living it every day.
Malpass: What's been your biggest success of the year?
Ardern: Look, I am gonna name some things alongside the pandemic
Malpass: It doesn't have to be just Covid, it can be whatever you want.
Ardern: Look in this environment, I cannot go past the vaccination rates, that's not
something that's just a success held by the many, many people who are part of that programme
but by New Zealand itself. That's for me a reminder the team of 5 million is
doing everything they can to give New Zealand the best chance, the best response possible.
But alongside that, to travel through a pandemic and one of the
biggest health crisis, and therefore economic crisis that we'll see in a lifetime
and have unemployment at 3.4%, that for me is therefore a measure that
we always set out to look after people's health but also their overall wellbeing
and that for me is a measure that we did that too, so that's a stand out for me.
Malpass: And what's been your biggest mistake and failure of the year?
Ardern: Oh... I wish the transition had been smoother.
Malpass: In what way?
Ardern: Well, I think one of the things that we've always, we've always focused
on is trying to map out exactly where we were going and how we intended to get there
but it was harder to do that in a linear or smooth way this year, because
there were so many moving pieces
what was happening with the Auckland outbreak? Were we keeping that contained
enough to ease at the same time managing the vaccination roll-out not just in Auckland
but across the rest of the country, making sure we had enough protection in other places.
Flipping into a new system, I would've liked that to move smoother
but there were so many moving parts.
But we've, at the same time, we've got where we needed to be.
Malpass: So in hindsight, hindsight obviously being 2020, in hindsight do you think you'd
wished you made the call that elimination was effectively over earlier or in a more open way?
Open is the wrong word but you know what I mean.
Ardern: I do know what you mean.
At the same time as we were going through that process there were still people who
held different views about what was happening with the outbreak.
So there wasn't any one day where it was declared that was that.
As I say when I reflect back on it, that's what I would've liked to have done differently, but
I often think about well at what point, we knew what we knew at the time and we did our very best
with all the information we had and there was a lot of competing advice
coming through at that time too, which you'll see.
But, at the end of all of that, we're still here at the end of the year
having achieved what we set out to.
Malpass: So what does the first traffic light summer mean for you? What are your plans
over the summer? When are you getting out of here? What are you gonna do?
Ardern: I think when you ask me what does a traffic light summer mean,
one of the things that I will finish feeling satisfied about
is that people, I hope, in New Zealand,
relative to what I've seen in other countries, know what to expect.
One of the things that I've been reflecting on over the past couple of months, you see
countries that have said 'look we've achieved these high vaccination rates
because of that then everything is coming off and freedom'.
And I watched with great interest in Europe,
particularly in countries like Denmark where they did that because of course
everyone wanted to believe that there were going to be able to do succeed
And within what 8 to 10 weeks, the restrictions were back
and increasingly they've ramped them up as well
So for me I go into summer believing that we've set up a system that will go the distance
When times are good then the restrictions ease off, but everyone knows that if we have to,
they know what will come next.
And just managing that expectation in a pandemic is really important thing.
So that's what I'll be thinking a bit about over the summer.
A traffic light summer for me is the same as every other summer really. I spend my time with my
family usually in the warmest place I can find in the country with a bit of sun
I try and read you know snippets, a page at a time with a 3-year-old.
Yeah, and that's exactly what I expect will happen this summer.
Malpass: And so you'll be up north somewhere?
Ardern: We'll be splitting time between my family and Clarke's family, pretty much.
For the first couple of weeks also, these are extraordinary times so we
usually have duty ministers, we've got some Covid duty ministers as well
so that we've got those ministers who are usually making those Covid decisions who are on rosters.
So I'll be doing a couple weeks.
Malpass: Are you getting married over the summer?
Ardern: That's the plan [laughs]
Malpass: How's the plan coming together?
Ardern: I have to be really honest, Clarke's in charge. Clarke is planning the wedding.
Malpass: Okay, anything else you can tell us about it?
Ardern: Honestly, not much [laughs]
Malpass: Do you know when it is for example?
Ardern: Yes, I do know when I have to show up, I know where to show up
and of course he's not in charge of what I'm wearing
So I have a few jobs, but to be honest, no many.
Malpass: Well good luck.
Ardern: Thank you.
Malpass: Have a great break.
Ardern: Thank you, same to you.
Malpass: Is there anything else you'd like to add right before we go?
Ardern: I just hope that everyone gets a break, everyone deserves it.
I'm very mindful, just before the end of the year finished,
I went and visited a few of our public health teams around the country
I haven't yet had a chance to visit our lab teams, but
there are a group of people who will just keep working all the way through
and I know we're all grateful to them as well.
Malpass: Prime Minister thanks so much for joining us.
Ardern: Thank you.