Hi, this is Brett Harned.
Welcome to PM Matters, a Team Gantt interview series that
raises the voice of the community and explores
what matters to us.
Hey everyone, this is Brett Harned.
I'm here with Rachel Gertz and her furry microphone.
Hi, Rachel.
Hi.
How's it going, guys?
We can see it.
It looks like the head of a Muppet
at the bottom of your screen and I love it.
So Rachel is a self-professed lover and trainer
of digital PM.
She runs Louder Than Ten, which is a school for people
who run creative projects.
And Rachel's a good friend of mine.
She is in Vancouver, British Columbia,
and doing lots of great work for the digital project management
community.
How are you, Rachel?
I'm doing great.
Thanks so much, Brett.
Thanks for-- I'm doing well, thanks.
So good to have you.
Get to talk to you a bunch, but never
in this more formal setting.
No, we're usually sending GIFs back in forth
in class, so, yeah, this is kind of nice.
Exactly.
So let's jump in.
I know people like podcasts that are super short,
so I have a bunch of questions for you.
Let's just have a good conversation.
I actually have never asked you this question before,
so let's kick it off with this one.
What was your path into Project Manager?
I think I started just like a lot of digital project
managers-- by accident.
My story is that I ended up in the belly of a Winnebago
traveling North America when I first started digital project
management.
The hubby and I decided we were done with the big fences
and done with condos, and we just sold everything.
We bought a Winnebago and we ended up just
doing digital projects on the road for about nine months.
Cool, that's awesome.
So what are you doing now?
Well, that's kind of evolved a little bit.
Now we're actually running a school for people
who manage creative projects.
So it's specifically more focusing on the digital side,
but the ultimate goal is to actually
have an end-to-end school that allows people to come in
if they've never heard of digital project management
and leave feeling like I got this.
That's awesome.
So, I guess you probably get asked this question every once
in awhile.
What makes you a good project manager or a good trainer
of Project Manager?
I think probably 80% of it is the ability
to listen and connect with what they're giving you
with their gut.
The vulnerability side, that soft skill side.
And just being really emotionally intelligent.
Like, I like to think that I'm really emotionally intelligent.
So hopefully you're not going to say, no, actually,
you're not at all.
I think that having that level of empathy--
to understand that.
Where we have a common goal and that
every single person is going to be
coming in from a different angle with different needs
and different interpretations.
It's like a tree that has all different sides,
and every side you see is the correct side.
Yeah, I absolutely agree with you.
I think at the heart of it, you've
got to be empathetic and a good communicator,
and kind of a people person in some ways.
I think you've got to like people a little.
Definitely.
And process, but more people, right?
Yes.
So what do you love about being a digital project manager?
I love the ability to create something
that starts out small.
That has a big idea behind it.
Something that you can actually rally and cheerlead
for your entire team and get them all excited,
and understanding that you're all
doing that same thing together.
Like all the little parts coming together.
I love talking to clients and getting them excited
because they can see-- OK, maybe I can't afford all of that
now, but maybe in the next two years.
That's the plan down the road.
That's cool when you see their eyes light up.
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that too.
So what's the bit of advice that you give project
managers when they're first getting started,
or similar helpful tips that you might provide in your courses?
Well, I think the biggest thing that I've realized
is that there is no one way to do this job.
And there's just starting now to be a lot more support
and resources available.
So I'd say the first thing would be make sure that you
have people who do what you do.
That you can reach out to for support.
That's the first thing.
And the second thing is a lot about how you interpret
your own power dynamic.
And I think the biggest thing would
be to realize when you walk into a room or your
on a call with a client, your tone,
the way that you're using your non-verbal cues,
your size-- everything about you is communicating a message.
And you're a lot more powerful than you think you are.
So if you come into that-- even if you're faking it a little
because you got the nervous pukey feeling,
most of the time your clients and people on the other side
of that won't know.
And you can back your team up and put down boundaries
in terms of your schedule.
And making sure that-- people are
going to keep you on hold for a 15 minute wait
while you guys are waiting on your calls, you hang up.
And say, you know, respect my time.
We're going to reschedule and thank you
for respecting that we're doing our jobs.
So I think just making sure that you've got clarity
and boundaries and support.
I think you make a really good point in that a lot
of project managers, whether they're
in the digital space handling client interactions
or not don't realize the kind of level of power
that they can embrace in their role.
And I don't think that should be taken
in a kind of evil, manipulative way.
PMs have the power to own a strategy
and push a project forward, and I
think that's really, really good advice that you're
giving people there.
Yeah, I think we probably feel pretty similarly about that.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think in general, in life, you've
got the power to make those decisions
and push things along.
So you transfer that sort of feeling and emotion
to your personal life-- from your personal life
to your professional life, you'll
probably be a much happier person.
That's actually a really good point, Brett,
because that was one of the things I was thinking
about with brand new PMs.
That confidence that you and I have-- it's
not because we're 20 years old.
Like we earned that right.
We went through a lot of hard things
in order to even get that level of confidence.
So I think it is realizing you're not
going to be able to come in and just be all like,
ooh, look at all this amazing, oozing confidence
that I have right now.
It's got to develop and you've got to trust yourself and learn
how to trust yourself.
So I feel like you just get better and better as you
go with this stuff, and that's why
I think it's important to have some other people looking out
for you when you're trying to look after your team.
I agree, and I think that trust comes in micro-interactions
as a PM too.
Especially when you're working with new clients.
Just showing them how much care and thought
you put into the work that you do gains trust.
But you know, we always hit speed bumps.
We always hit issues no matter how seasoned you are.
So I'm wondering, what do you do in a scenario
where your client's really nice, they're good people,
you get along with them.
There's no issues there.
It feels like there's trust.
But it feels like maybe they're starting to take advantage?
Maybe they're starting to miss deadlines
and expecting your team to make up for time,
and then they start asking for things that are out of scope.
How do you handle that kind of situation?
Yeah, that's the classic nice client situation.
So you think you go in and it's all going to be rosy.
I think what I tend to do is I will immediately
assess the situation and think to myself, OK,
what could be going on the other side of this wall--
on this client side?
So my guess would be maybe this person isn't actually the one
calling the shots?
There is a point of contact.
But maybe somebody else is saying, look,
we need this and this.
You're not getting it.
You need to go back to the agency
and you need to be asking for those kinds of things.
Because if they're nice to you, but all of a sudden
they start missing things or missing deadlines,
or all of a sudden asking for more.
There is a bigger picture that you're not--
is not visible to your eye.
And your job as a PM and your team's job
is to actually suck that out together, and that by asking
very gentle questions.
But getting information-- finding out, OK,
so they spread too thin?
Are they actually maybe working the job
or the role of three people?
And so now that's why they're not available,
but they're asking for more things
because suddenly there's more pressure being put on them.
So, I mean, I like to give people
the benefit of the doubt.
Most people aren't a-holes to begin with.
They usually earn that throughout the project
if the trust level goes down in that project
and you suddenly give them a reason
to doubt you or the team.
Sometimes it's not the case.
Sometimes it's just all on that one side.
But I like to-- yeah, definitely have a real conversation
goal off the normal-- if you're in person, if you
can get a meeting with them, just to like, hey,
let's go for a coffee.
Let's chat about this because things are feeling a little
weird and things are shifting and they weren't-- they were
tighter before.
And I just want to find out-- how are you doing?
Ask them as a human being first because they've got family.
Maybe their dog has a wicked case of diarrhea.
You don't know, right?
So making sure that you're sensitive to that first
and foremost before assuming the worst about that client.
Exactly.
So at what point do you pull out things
like your scope or your timeline, and make things--
I guess a little less personal?
I'm all for the personal what's happening asking
questions and that approach.
I think that's the best first approach.
But at what point do you say, no, this
is what we have in writing?
I think that's really an important part.
So it's that white glove it initially,
and then you have to gauge their response.
So if you're getting a little bit of push back-- I mean,
I always even when I am talking about sort of the soft stuff,
I'm always going back to the business goals.
Like what are we doing?
What was outlined in that initial scope document
and project plan.
What did we agree to?
Because then that's something to make it
like-- I'm being the boss, and I'm
saying you can't have that extra functionality
in your e-commerce sector.
You're saying this is what we outlined to make sure
that we can protect that timeline that we talked about
and your budget.
So it's like a safety net, right?
And so I do.
I try to refer back as soon as possible, but not
in a threatening way until you have to bring out the big guns.
It gets nasty and sometimes that happens,
but if you can sort of sidestep that
by just bringing it back fast and backing up everything
with a business case.
I mean, it's amazing.
That's what they want, right?
They want to know that they're in good hands
and you're going to deliver.
Yeah.
Totally agree.
That works for you, too?
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So kind of switching gears a little bit,
you and I are pretty involved in the larger digital project
management community, and writing and speaking.
I'm wondering what topics which people talked about more?
That's a good question.
I think they've really started to break
open a lot of the topic about the softer side
and knowing like, hey, you have more power
than you think and stuff.
But the things that we're still--
I think we need to maybe work on is understanding-- for me,
this is a huge thing because I see it happening over and over
and over in different agencies.
Where you get somebody who comes to you for support
and they have some advice now.
And they're like OK, I feel pretty good about this.
They go back into their environment,
and they're-- someone just takes a total crap on their head.
They don't have the support that they need
from management or their team.
And so they're really running it alone.
And they might be the best PM in the entire world,
but if they're not set up for a successful environment,
they're not going to be able to succeed.
And then they're going to lose somebody
who's really, really good.
So I think the topic is that I want
to see ways that we're talking about how to actually reinforce
that power that we talked about in the environment,
and how we get people on board pulling
the same direction because a lot of the time
you get ego involved, and suddenly you're not even
talking about that same topic and more.
You're talking about people's personalities and people
wanting to make sure that they're dictating the process.
And it's for the sake of the process,
not because it's actually working.
Yeah, I think that's great.
I think there's a lot to be talked
about within the role of the PM and the title of the PM,
and what those two different things mean.
And how you can really support the role or the title
in your organization and set somebody up to do a good job.
It's funny, I just wrote an article on the Team Gantt blog
about the argument for project managers
because I do think that comes up every once in awhile.
And really, what it all comes down to
is having the support to be a good project
manager and the framework to be a good project manager.
Because in some instances, I do think that people need rules.
They need guidelines to do the right job.
And if you don't have those, you're
setting someone up to fail particularly in the PM role.
And unfortunately, I think that's why
there are "bad" project managers out there because they're just
not-- they're set up to fail.
That's all their team ever sees.
I mean, the team or the management is like, oh,
I don't like project managers.
They're all blank, and it's like, you probably only meant
two.
And maybe they weren't blank because they
weren't set up for their job to actually go anywhere.
So yeah, I think that's a good conversation piece too.
I want us to tackle that big time.
Let's go out there and start changing the way people are
actually viewing project managers
and we need everyone's help for that.
Yeah.
I think we need people to embrace this community
and everything that we can do, and start writing and talking
more about it.
Which I think is happening, which is really cool.
So I think we're just at about time,
but do you have any parting advice
for people watching this?
Project managers, people who are interested in managing
projects, that kind of thing?
I'd say I think if they're interested in it, the way
that you can decide which pathway to get on
is to understand you are going to get it from both ends
when you have this goal.
You're kind of that person that keeps everything together.
So you have to be OK with feeling like you might
have a lot on your shoulders.
But at the same time, the reward of being able to keep your team
buttoned up.
That's hugely important, and I find
that most project managers are natural people pleasers,
natural communicators.
They are fun at parties.
Like I don't know if you've got-- well, Brett-- right?
Karaoke?
PMs are hilarious.
So they're good people, and I think
if you're thinking about going into that role,
you've got to be-- first and foremost, you've
got to feel really comfortable with tough conversations.
Or at least get familiar-- be OK with the discomfort
of all of that awkwardness because you're basically
coming in and filtering everything for everybody else.
And I say that the biggest takeaway for me-- the thing
that I learned comes back to we teach people how to treat us.
And so, we might not even know the things
that we're doing that are causing behaviors
to sort of unfold in a certain way.
Where people might give us grief or maybe come down
a little harder on us.
And as soon as we realize our power dynamic,
that we teach people who taught that client to not respect
our time, or we taught that team member to not understand
our role.
I mean, in a way, if everybody has that same feeling,
then I think that we eventually strengthen our roles
and we really can come together and be
fighting for the same thing in the project.
Great.
I completely agree with everything you just said.
No, you don't, Brett.
Yeah-- hey, if I didn't, I would tell you.
Yeah, you would.
Hey, well, thank you so much for joining me.
This has been awesome.
You guys can catch up with Rachel
on Twitter @TheStrayMuse.
Louderthanten.com, which it puts out a monthly magazine,
correct?
It's actually bimonthly, which is once every two, right?
Yes, there we go.
Sorry about that.
And then we cannot forget about everydaydpm.com,
where Rachel and I are co-blogging daily about project
management, so check that out as well.
And we'll see you next time.
Thanks so much, Rachel.
Bye.
Thank you.
Bye.