Jeff: When people define esthetics, they're not talking about the 15% body fat guy.
I hate to break it to you, but they're not. That's not the ideal when it comes
to esthetics. Jesse:
So this is my rustle some jimmies. Jeff: What does that mean?
Jesse: Fire some people up. Jeff: What's up, guys,
Jeff Cavaliere, Athleanx.com. Jesse: Jesse Laico, Athleanx.com.
Jeff: I don't know if we re going to fire you up, but we're going to certainly talk
truth here. We're talking about body fat percentages, and this started
because of a friendly commenter who wrote in. Jesse: Ah, yes, this is from AddisonWelles422.
I watched a few videos recently where the people said that 15% body fat is the ideal
body fat for men to look and feel good. This is completely in contrast to the 6% that you're at
and that you recommend. The 15% seems far more realistic and feasible. Don't you think you
should be recommending the same? Damn. Jeff: I wish I'd might have said that,
but I never did. Jesse: You never said that?
Jeff: I never said that. But let's get into this because I think there's a valid discussion here.
We're talking about is there an ideal body fat percentage for men? And if there is,
is it 6% or 15%? And being someone that is definitely a lean level of body fat percentage,
I'm not saying actually six, but we'll talk about me later. Is that something you think
that I would recommend? Jesse: Right.
Jeff: I think you first and foremost have to identify, because it's so important to the whole
argument that anyone will make, is what is your goal? And I think we can break it down into like
three categories, broadly. Jesse: Okay.
Jeff: Esthetics, right, the look of the leanness. Athletics, whether you have
some performance goal behind the leanness that you're trying to achieve. Strength,
whether you're trying to obtain a certain level of strength. Again, the level of body
fat is going to have some implication there. Jesse: Now, what if you are an absolute legend,
like me, and you're trying to achieve all three?
Wouldn t you put a fourth category together saying, All the above?
Jeff: The Sigma category. Jesse: The Sig -- the Alpha and
Sigma at the same time. Jeff: Maybe.
Jesse: You've ever seen the movie I Am Legend? Jeff: I think a lot of people out there actually
might be looking to achieve all three of those, that's a valid point minus all of your flourish
language here. So. All right. So, let's talk about each. I want to start with the athletic side
first, because that's the part that I feel most comfortable with. When we talk about athletes,
you need additional level of specificity to determine what you're talking about when we're
talking about body fat. What sport do you play? A marathon runner is certainly not going to benefit
from a big bulk before the big race. The same way that an offensive lineman who's 5% body fat
is probably going to lose ten out of ten times in terms of the battle of the trenches. Right.
That's not going to be pretty. So, the sport you play, and also, as I just said, even the position
that you play could dictate higher or lower levels of body fat that are allowable or that will still
allow for certain level of performance. Jesse: So, like a lineman versus
a wide receiver? Jeff: Right. Because this
actually -- this is one of those pet peeves for me where the biggest hallmark of someone that's never
trained an athlete is when they make the statement that being lower than 15% body fat is going to
compromise their performance as an athlete. Jesse: Right?
Jeff: They've never trained an athlete. Anybody that ever says that has no experience
with athletes. Certain athletes can get to that level, much lower body fat levels, not six, but
much lower body fat levels are in some cases like DK Metcalf, six and Excel. And there's a reason
for that and we're going to talk about why that's so important, because that's actually dictating
why you may or may not be struggling to get to a certain body fat percentage. But with DK Metcalf,
he's not only walking around that level of body fat, he's excelling. He's a Pro Bowler.
Jesse: Yeah. Jeff: He's great. You can look at other
guys, there are rugby players who are incredibly athletic, right? Who have all elements of speed,
strength. Certain ones are doing it very low levels of body fat. One of our friends,
Michael Chandler. Jesse: Oh, yeah.
Jeff: Excelling at this, not just doing okay, excelling in his sport at very lean levels
of body fat. Serge Ibaka, NBA player, one of the best defenders, did so at very lean levels of body
fat. At great levels of muscularity too. And then there's actually one that really is entertaining
to me because it sort of encapsulates everything we talk about. His name is Bryan Clay. He was 5 10
180, he was 8% body fat, 2008 Olympic champion for the decathlon. It was ever an indicator of
athleticism it's the decathlon, right? It's the ultimate athlete. But let me go even further with
that. He was tested by Spark Testing, which is basically a measurement, a standardized
test of athleticism, speed, agility, quickness, reaction. So, in football, he scored 130.4, the
highest ever recorded. By comparison, Reggie Bush, a damn good athlete, scored 93.38 on the test.
Jesse: Holy smokes. Jeff: He has a vertical leap of 45.3
inches one of the highest no step vertical jumps in NBA or NFL history. He ran the 30-yard sprint,
which is basically from home to first base, faster than Jacoby Ellsbury, one of the
fastest men, another team athlete guy, a little faster than any other major leaguer from home
to first. He had higher ratings in all sports, soccer, baseball, basketball and the athletic
assessment score of 145. His basketball Spark rating is better than every professional
basketball player, including Derrick Rose, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade.
Jesse: Holy shit. Jeff: Eight percent body fat wasn't holding him
back. So, we can dispel that idea that you have to be at a certain level in order to excel.
Jesse: Right Jeff: Now we talk about
strength, and I think this is something that you definitely are going to want to chime in here.
Jesse: That s what I like to do. Jeff: Based upon what you're what you've been
able to achieve. Now, there's a, there's a general notion out there that if you are too lean, your
strength is going to suffer. And at higher levels of body fat, which is where a lot of the bulking,
cutting recommendations come in. When people want to get stronger or add size, they should do so in
a bulk so that they can have stronger lifts, add more size because of that, because of overload,
and then they can worry about cutting down. I think the big flaw to this method here,
and again, I might piss some people off, but it is what it is. You are not Thor Bj rnsson. You
are not Eddie Hall. You are not one of the elite level competitors in strength and powerlifting and
strong men. Likely not. I'm not saying everyone out there. I'm just saying that likely you are
not. And what you're doing is you're applying these standards in these generalities to your
own training a lot of times as an excuse to not actually attempt to get leaner. That it s a way
to sort of dissociate yourself from, I don't want any of that esthetic stuff, that's for the guys
who are interested in too much in themselves. And I'm going to go more towards the performance side
of it. But you've been able to do both. Jesse: Yeah. I've been able to stay pretty
lean and also work on my strength to be pretty good, if I do say so myself.
Jeff: So, Jesse, as you can see in these clips here now,
a 550 pound deadlift or squatter over 400 pounds, you know, things that people said, first of all,
he could never achieve. Secondly, saying that he certainly couldn't do it and remain lean.
Jesse: Yeah. Jeff: All right. And then when we talk about
the esthetic part of this, first of all, esthetics are incredibly subjective, right? What you think
looks good may not look good to somebody else, and vice versa. Someone might see Jeff Cavaliere level
of leanness and say, wow, that looks great and some might say, oh my God, that looks
disgusting. And we get it every day. We hear it all the time. Now take that out of the equation.
What you need to realize is that finding your set point
for your body composition is incredibly important. And guess what? The variability of set point is
probably where some of these arguments come from, where 15% is superior and 6% is unobtainable. And
well, guess what? Let's talk about 6%. I said in the very beginning, just because I'm at a
lean level of body fat and I don't know if it's 6 or 6.5 or 7.1, I don't know. It's down there,
though. Just because I have that doesn't mean that I recommend that for everybody. Because all of the
benefits that people want to get from being lean, they can achieve higher body fat percentages than
six. Let's settle at 10. Yeah, 10 is, is an area that you can get all the definition that you want,
all the esthetic benefits and still have performance capabilities without sacrificing your
quality of your life. Jesse: Right.
Jeff: Now, I will tell you this to dispel another myth, that sometimes pisses me off when I hear it,
just because you're ultra lean -- I know some people out there in the comments are going to
want to speak up on this too. Just because you're ultra lean does not mean that you are doomed to
a life of suckiness, right? Every single day in my life, I walk around at this low level of body
fat. Not once do I suffer from decreased energy. Not once do I suffer from decreased libido. Now,
once do I suffer from a lack of clarity. Not once do I suffer from my ability to perform
in the gym. None of that. And I don't take drugs, never took one of my entire life. Nothing aids me
in my ability to stay lean. The only thing that's aid in my ability to stay lean is just consistency
for now, 25 to 30 years. A long-term consistency in eating a proper way that makes me feel good. I
like being at this level, it feels good to me. You know why? Because I have a set point that allows
for it. A lot of people watching won't have that set point. If you want to use 6% as the level,
how about this? I would estimate that 40% of the people that tried to achieve a 6% body fat level
could never get there, physiologically can never get there.
Jesse: Their bodies won t allow it. Jeff: No. Even if they follow starvation diets,
whatever, their body is going to physiologically give them the feedback that disallows their
pursuit to continue towards that number. Jesse: Okay.
Jeff: And you might have experienced this yourself. And a lot of times people like to
wrap this up in kind of talking about body types, endomorph and ectomorph, the more I like to get
into that. But like there is a little bit of valid reasoning behind the genetic component
of this and the genetic component being that someone with a faster metabolism genetically
has the ability to eat more and process foods better and maintain higher energy levels because
they're set point allows for it. Two people, I'm sure you've experienced, could eat the same thing
and not look the same. Jesse: Yeah.
Jeff: They could identically -- they could eat the same number of calories and not look the same for
a variety of factors, a lot of different factors, but simply because their set point for body fat
and body composition is different. If you are trying to get down to that level and your body
is rejecting you along the way to the point where your energy does crash or your testosterone levels
do crash or your libido does crash, there's so many signs and symptoms that say, this ain't for
me, and you turn around and go back. Jesse: Yeah.
Jeff: But in order to give it a fair assessment, you can't be trying to do this overnight. I didn't
do this overnight, I didn't obtain my level of leanness overnight. It's been years and the years
just slowly but surely and consistently. So, what I would recommend is that you actually
give this a try the real way. Adopt a healthier eating lifestyle, better sleep, better recovery,
less drinking. If that's a problem for you right now, calorically you're probably putting yourself
behind the eight ball if you're drinking because it's too easy to drink your calories and keep
yourself out of a caloric deficit. So, whatever you have to do to adopt a healthier lifestyle,
give yourself the chance to explore lower levels of body fat before you just say, hey,
it's not for me, because saying that's not feasible, don't confuse that with it's not
something I feel like doing. Jesse: Or it's not easy.
Jeff: It's not easy, right. Don't look for the easier way out. If you desire to have the
esthetic component to lower body fat levels, then attempt to do it and you'll see what your body
does. Certain people will find that they do reject it and they have to go backwards and turn around.
And what you do is you just simply work yourself back up until you find a body at that level that's
the lowest that you can actually live with and enjoy, but still give you the esthetic benefits
that you're pursuing. Jesse: Yeah.
Jeff: If you were to raise that number to 10% body fat instead of six,
I think that instead of 40% of people not being able to, to, to do, to get there, you look
at it like 10% of people that can't get there. Jesse: Yeah.
Jeff: Maybe only 10% of people have that set point that even resides a little bit higher than that.
Maybe it's 12%, they just can't stubbornly get past that 12, right? No matter what they do,
no matter how clean their diet is, they can't get there. Here's the other number, the 6%.
I think there's maybe only 5% of people that can maintain that. And that's huge, right? Because if
only 5% of people can maintain it, then what's it worth to you? If you can't get there but sustain
it, it's not for you. Jesse: Yeah.
Jeff: If there's a diet that you're using right now that gets you here, but you can't sustain
it because you hate eating that way, what's it worth to you? What are we doing here? What is
the idea? What is the objective? Is it a quality of life or are we trying to improve ourselves in
the gym for an overall quality of life or just to look a certain way? And I think the reality is I
try to preach that, yes, looking a certain way is important, but feeling good to support it is even
more important. Jesse: Yeah.
Jeff: And being able to perform like an athlete and whatever
endeavors you want is incredibly important. Jesse: And staying healthy in the process.
Jeff: And staying healthy in the process, not having to do things to get yourself there, but
jeopardize your health in the process. Which is what I think a lot of people are doing right now,
which is horrible. Regardless of where you sit on the fence of 15 or six. Clearly, I don't sit at
either end of the spectrum. I think there are some undeniable facts in truth when it comes to being
lean. And I just want to make sure everybody is clear on this is the part that could offend some
people, too. Number one, can we all stop using words to describe the level of leanness.
Jesse: Like ripped and peeled. Jeff: Ripped and peeled? Can we cut
some more? Diced. Jesse: Shredded.
Jeff: Shredded, cut. What else? Jesse: Lean.
Jeff: Lean. I think we already said it. Because to me, if you were to ask me,
I would look at it like this, whatever the body fat level is, is high, this is low, right?
Jesse: Yeah. Jeff: Lean,
Ripped. Jesse: Okay.
Jeff: Shredded. Jesse: Yep.
Jeff: Diced. Jesse: All the way at the bottom.
Jeff: All the way at the bottom. Jesse: Like Helmut Strebl?
Jeff: Yeah, like him, like this guy. Would you say the same?
Jesse: Yeah, pretty much. Jeff: But other people's words
may be different. Why are we talking in words, because it's so subjective? Why don't we talk in
objectivity by just talking about actual body fat percentages? And again, 6% is not something that I
think would be recommended to anybody, especially because the majority of people will never, ever be
able to either obtain it or maintain it. Jesse: Yeah.
Jeff: But being 15%, I mean, again, here comes undeniable fact number two,
being at a lower level body fat is always going to allow you to look bigger and more muscular
than you are, period. When an actor comes to work with me, the first thing they want to do to get
in shape for a role, you've got to get a little leaner. Because being a little bit leaner is going
to make the muscularity they have look better. Jesse: It makes the muscles start
to pop and define more. Jeff: Exactly. Even somebody
like Bruce Lee, who didn't carry a whole hell of a lot of muscle but is known as a fitness icon.
Somebody that I look up to incredibly right throughout all the years, I feel like Bruce
Lee is an icon in fitness. He wasn't a very muscular guy, but his level of leanness made
the muscle he had that sinewy, ripped muscle, I just use that word, look really impressive.
Jesse: Yeah. Jeff: Right. Because the leaner he is,
the more impressive it's going to be. So, in your pursuit of esthetics, just understand that
at that very one point, 10% is going to look more impressive than 15% from an esthetic standpoint.
And when people define esthetics, when they talk about a six pack, they re talking about
obliques and gills and when we're talking about definition your shoulders, in between the heads
of your shoulders and delts, they're talking about someone who is at 10% body fat or so.
They're not talking about the 15% body fat guy. I hate to break it to you, but they're not. That's
not the ideal when it comes to esthetics. Is it something that could be subjectively something
you prefer? 100%. Like I said, you may not like this, but when you're talking about the social
image of what a what a ripped person is, yeah, it's going to be something that looks more like 10
than it does 15. You just have to understand that whatever pursuit you're following here, as I said,
it's undeniable that you're going to have to put an effort to get there.
It's not easy. If it was easy, every single person would walk around being whatever it is we're
trying to get to. It's not. And if you're trying to be extra strong or you're trying to be an elite
level strongman or power lifter, you have to put in a lot of effort to get there too no matter what
the goal is. It s not limited to just esthetics here and being ripped. No matter what the goal is,
you have to put in the work. But I'm kind of a little bit tired of hearing that there's one
body fat percentage that works for everybody and this is what you should be. I kind of feel
like it's a cop out, and I also feel like it completely disregards the fact that science
has shown us that there literally is a set point that varies from person to person that will allow
you to have an easier or harder time getting to and maintaining a level of body fat. And for me,
if you're going to do it, do it right. Get there and maintain it comfortably without compromising
the other aspects of your life. Jesse: Yeah.
Jeff: So, I hope that answered his question and maybe he feels a little bit less
convinced that his position is right. Jesse: Yeah. And that the 6% is what
you're recommending to everybody. Jeff: Well, clearly not. Clearly, not. Again,
I rather see you be consistently at something that you can achieve and do so healthily.
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