Ta-Nehisi Coates, welcome back
to The Daily Social Distancing Show.
Trevor, thanks for having me back, man.
This is truly an honor, because I just found out today
you are officially the number one guest
we've had on the show, as in, like,
you've been on my show the most frequent... Yeah.
Imagine that. Imagine that.
Six-six years. What a journey it's been.
Well, five years, I guess. We've been on...
-Wow. -You know, you've been on the show six ti...
-Six times in five years, that's what it's been. -Wow.
Oh, wow. Wow. That's great.
I-I have no problem with that at all.
I-I would love to know,
as somebody who has been talking to you over these five years
and somebody who's watched your life change dramatically
but not necessarily your tenor,
have you seen a change
in the world around you over the past five years,
or have you just experienced
more of the world being the world?
And I-I mean specifically America, obviously,
'cause that's what you write about most of the time.
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
Um, you know, to some extent,
for the worst, you know,
I-I think the worst is pretty obvious.
Um, you know, I think a quarter million and counting
Americans dead is, you know, pretty obvious.
Us picking up a million COVID cases a week.
-Right. -That is obviously, you know, uh, pretty bad.
And-and the fact that, you know, there's really been no response,
uh, of-of note or of merit from the government.
I-I don't know what a state is for
if it's not to prevent the senseless death
of, you know, a quarter million of its inhabitants.
What's the point of having a state?
And perhaps that's kind of the point.
Uh, but, um,
that is probably uppermost
in my... in my head right now
in terms of, you know, turns for the bat.
Um, there has been, um, I think,
among a certain portion
of Americans
outside-outside of the African-American community,
probably an increased awareness,
you know, of-of certain issues.
Um, I think Trump himself
has probably made that hard to ignore.
-Right. -Um, I think, obviously,
the summer protests made that hard to ignore.
I think, uh, the disproportionate impact of COVID
has made that hard to ignore.
Um, how long that will last or what that will come to,
I'm-I'm not sure,
but it certainly is a change, I would say.
We've got a few things happening
in the world of Ta-Nehisi Coates.
Let's talk-talk, first of all, about The Water Dancer.
The last time I was with you in the studio,
you were on to promote, um, the-the hardcover of the book.
Now it's out in paperback.
You were you exhausted promoting the book,
but I guess you got fresh energy,
'cause you're back out promoting it again.
And I believe that Oprah Winfrey and Brad Pitt
have teamed up to turn the book into a film.
This is... I mean, this is...
It's Brad Pitt and Oprah Winfrey.
Is there a moment when you stop sometimes and be like,
"Yo, I'm working with Brad Pritt...
Brad Pitt and Oprah Winfrey"? It's like...
You know what I mean? It's like the kings and queens
of white people and Black people.
You've won the game.
This is the perfect setup.
-Um... (chuckles) -(chuckles)
I hate to break your heart, but I've never met Brad Pitt.
-(laughs) -Wow.
And, um, you know,
I-I do know Oprah a little,
a little better, you know what I mean?
Just a little better. I don't want to take any liberties here.
Uh, but, you know, th-these are their production companies,
you know, which obviously reflect their vision,
you know what I mean, and their taste and their aesthetic,
you know, again, not casting any shade.
But, you know, it's funny, because, like,
when we.... We've been going through this...
Well, shoot, I-I've been... This is November now,
so I have been in discussion with Plan B,
with Brad Pitt's, uh, production company,
um, for about a year now
and-and Jeremy Kleiner
and, um, Dede, you know, over there,
so it-it's been, um...
But I talk to-to the people who work for them.
Like, I talk to the day-to-day people,
you know what I mean? And there's this back...
You know, it's constant, constant conversation.
I mean, I've been talking as recently as yesterday
-about what we're gonna do, how we're gonna do it. -Right.
But when it's reported out, it's like,
"Hey, Ta-Nehisi's working with Brad Pitt and Oprah
-to make a film." -Yeah, but we need to...
We need to switch up your game. You need to hire me.
I'll be the guy who calls
to speak to the people who work for them,
and then I'll tell them,
"Yeah, Ta-Nehisi will meet with Brad and Oprah."
-I mean, you're Ta-Nehisi Coates. -No, no, no!
Look, look, look, the people... the people who do work for them,
they're geniuses. They're great. I love them.
I love them. I-I really, really do.
It's just funny how-how it gets reported out,
because I-I, you know, I sit on a phone,
you know, uh, with these folks.
-Right. -And I'm saying their names
because nobody, you know, really says their names.
But, you know, I sit on the phone with Dede Gardner,
and she tells me, you know, what films I should look at
-and what I should be thinking about. -Right, right.
You know what I mean? And I'm like, you know,
these-these are the voices that are actually in my head,
you know what I mean? Like, when I'm thinking about it as a film.
These are the people I'm actually getting feedback from.
Got it. Yeah, but it-- but when it's reported in the papers,
it seems like you're in a room with Oprah and Brad Pitt
being like, "All right, what do we do
with this character, Brad?" And he's like, "Yo, Ta-Nehisi,
this is how I think you should do it."
And Oprah's like, "Everybody's getting involved!"
-That's what it seems like. -(laughs)
It's not like that at all. (laughs)
But it's still-- it's still a big project, man.
I feel like all of your projects are turning into...
some sort of-- You know, you're an author,
but-but your work, your work evokes so much imagery
that it almost lends itself
to being created into some sort of film.
The same thing is happening with Between the World and Me.
I got-- I got an opportunity to watch an advance copy of it,
and-- I mean, I love the book.
Everyone loves the book. I mean, there's a reason
it's a New York Times best seller forever.
But I think seeing the-the--
you know, seeing people reenact portions of the book
in a way that-that makes the conversation different,
it-it really changed the book.
I-I don't know how to articulate it, really.
Because for those who don't know,
you wrote the book in 2015.
It was a huge best seller.
And, in many ways, it shaped conversations
that people have in and around race in America, you know?
Now, what you've done with HBO is
you've-- they've created this film based on the book.
And it has everybody. I mean, from Mahershala Ali
to Oprah Winfrey and Black Thought
and T.I. and Yara Shahidi, and you just got all these people--
And-and Joe Morton is easily my favorite in it
because of how he articulates what's happening in the book.
And it's a conversation--
The way you wrote it was a conversation,
a letter from yourself to your then 14-year-old son.
When you look at what the project is now--
First of all, why do you think
all of those big names agreed to do it?
And what do you think changed in the project,
like-like, when you put faces to it?
So, now I have to play the-the Brad Pitt/Oprah role,
because I did nothing on that film.
-I offered, like, feedback, -(laughs)
like, two or three-- I have no insight into--
It's a beautiful film. Let me-- let me be clear. It's beautiful.
I'm not exactly sure why or I'm not exactly sure how,
you know, it was made.
You know, it-it's directed, you know,
by-by my good friend Kamilah Forbes,
um, who pulled it, you know, together.
You know, produced by, you know, her
and Susan Kelechi Watson of This Is Us fame.
All of us went to Howard together.
So there-there's a kind of, you know, intimacy
-and-and bond that-that was already there. -Got it, got it.
'Cause it feel-- 'Cause it felt true to your work.
That's-- You know, so it's surprising when you say to me,
like, "No, I wasn't--" 'Cause, I mean, you're-you're in the film.
-Yes, I am. I am, but I'm not... -Right.
Tho-Those are-- That is not--
I would have no idea
how to turn Between the World and Me into a film. None.
-None. A-Absolutely none. -Yes. Yes.
And so, um, I just, um...
(stammers) Kamilah's somebody I really, really trust,
because she had done the theatrical adaptation
-and I had worked with her before then, so... -Right.
Um, but when we were pitching,
you know, um, like, networks and everything,
I remember being in those meetings and--
you know, over Zoom, obviously--
but being in those meetings, and...
I wasn't nervous at all.
Because I-I had, you know, really complete faith
that, you know, she was gonna do something special.
-She really did. -What that special thing would be,
-I had no idea. (laughs) -(laughing)
It's not my problem.
So-- Okay, so then-- so then you were in an interesting position,
because you-you were as surprised as I was
when you watched it then. So when you did watch it,
did you feel like it kept the essence of what the book was
or do you think it added something different
that the book didn't?
I think it added something different, man.
Um, because I think, when you write a book,
what you're trying to achieve
is a very intimate one-on-one experience with a reader.
You know? You want what the-- You know, it's just you
-and the reader locked in this one place. -Yeah.
Um, and it's-it's, you know--
The singular voice that the reader hears,
that comes out is collaboration between you two.
Um, theater-- to say nothing of television--
is-is totally different in the sense that...
there was nothing I could have done
within Between the World and Me
that would have allowed for you to see it
the way you see it when Angela Davis reads those words.
-Right. -When Yara reads those words. When Courtney B. Vance...
You know, it's a very different thing when Mahershala--
I-I can't-- I can't do that. (sniffs)
I can't do that. And, frankly, you know, like, one of the--
I think we talked about this before-- you know,
one of the critiques of Between the World and Me was,
you know, um, it-it didn't open itself up,
you know, in terms of gender.
You know, it didn't, you know, have--
You know, it was this Bla-- heavily Black male experience
-that was standing up... -Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
You know, and-and my thing was always I hear that,
but I really don't know what I as a-- as a writer,
you know what I mean, could do, you know, very differently
-within the scope of what that book was. -Right.
And yet, when I saw the film,
and I saw it open and it said, "Dear son,
"dear daughter, dear nephew,
dear cousin," it-- You know what I mean?
-Yeah. -Even... as I said, having, you know,
um, Black women, having trans, you know, women
in-in that, you know, reading, it opens up.
It becomes something that is much more
than the book could actually, you know, be.
That's amazing, man. I-I found myself wondering
when I was watching it, I was like,
"This is-- this is a book that you wrote for your son."
I mean, you know, it's-it's for the people,
but you wrote it to your son,
your 14-year-old son at the time.
I would-- I I would love to know what conversations you have
with your son now, who's 19,
and also what you would have said to him then
but he was too young for you to have a conversation about.
Like, how has that relationship evolved?
So, um... So, he turned 20 in August,
-which is a crucial age. -Wow.
It's a very, very crucial age.
Um, because, you know, he's not...
Obviously, he's very much not a boy anymore.
Um, he's very much a young man, you know,
an adult out-out on his own.
(exhales) I find myself-- it's funny--
these days, probably listening to Samori more
than I find myself, um, telling him... anything.
He has his own interests, you know,
his own, you know, things that-that he's pursuing.
Um... and so probably never more in my life
in our relationship have I actually listened more
-than I-- than I talked, actually. -Wow.
-Wow. Wow. -It's fascinating. It's fascinating.
'Cause I'll never be a, you know, 20-year-old,
you know, young Black male right now.
I won't have that experience.
You know, so it's kind of fascinating l-listening to him,
you know, talk and, you know, how he sees the world.
What would you say is the biggest difference that-that--
in the way the two of you see the world?
I'm sure you have a lot of similarities. But I find--
You know, like I'll have with my younger brother, for instance,
or anyone, really, if you share a connection with them
but they're of a different generation,
sometimes they'll-they'll--
they just see one part of the world in a different way to you
because of when they were born and how they were raised.
Do you have something like that, where you look at your son
and you're like, "Oh, yeah, I guess..."
Yes. Um, he is who I was
with ten times the confidence
and maybe ten times the opportunity.
-Wow. -Um, yeah.
I-I recognize a lot of myself in him,
but he's-he's just much, much more confident.
Um, and I think that comes out of how
or where, rather, not even how,
where, you know, he was raised,
as opposed to, you know, where-where I was raised,
the environment I was in.
Me and my wife talk about this all the time,
you know, about how, you know,
we were constantly shielding ourselves from things,
you know, ducking, you know,
worried about what was gonna happen here.
And he has a lot less of that,
um, and thus has a, you know, a much higher...
degree of belief in his ability to, you know,
almost out of his sheer will, you know, just conjure things.
You know, and-and to the extent that...
there is some, you know, uh, talkback, it's often, you know,
pulling him back from that, you know?
Um, 'cause I think, you know, it's good.
It's good. I-I really love to see it.
But, you know, sometimes you can go a little too far with that.
-(chuckles) -(chuckles) Before I let you go,
I have to ask you a question that I think I've asked you
every single time you've been on the show,
because you're my favorite person
and only person I ask this question to.
But looking at the election and looking at, like-like,
the vaccines and just, like, where we are now,
how optimistic is Ta-Nehisi Coates now about America?
It's a struggle. It's a struggle.
It's gonna be a struggle.
Um, it's gonna be a struggle for a while, I think.
Um, I think, um...
There was enormous damage done over the last four years.
-Mm-hmm. -Um, I think
for a party to...
deny the previous president,
um, the opportunity to appoint a-a Supreme ju--
a Supreme Court judge, a lifetime appointment,
to win but not through the popular vote
and then to appoint three in four years.
Um, I think the damage to...
democratic legitimacy...
piled onto, everything else that, you know, Trump has done.
-Right. -Um, I think, I think it's enormous.
I think it's enormous and I expect to actually outlive me,
um, the damage of that. I think it's really significant.
Um, so I-I think we're in for some, uh,
for some tough times, you know?
But, you know, again I think I've said this before.
Being African American, being a progeny of a people
who were enslaved in this country for 250 years
and, you know, lived through, you know,
another subsequent hundred years of Jim Crow, um,
having, you know, been born at the time
of the rise of mass incarceration,
you know, ever thus, when was it not, you know, as it is?
Is it worse no than it was then? No.
It's not worse, you know, I wouldn't say that.
You know, um, so this-this is the condition.
You know, this is where we are.
As always, man, I appreciate having you on.
I'm excited for the movie adaptation of your book
that you're not working on with Brad Pitt and Oprah.
And I'm excited for the film that was made from your work
but you were just like, "Yeah, I'm just gonna watch it
just like the rest of you."
So, uh, either way, I'm excited for you, man.
Thank you so much for taking the time.
Good seeing you again, look after yourself.
Thank you, thank you.