-It's presidential primary season,
and that means one thing -- debates.
So many debates.
So many candidates.
So many zingers and gaffes and cable-news people
wondering who came out on top
and who ruined their chances forever.
The same narratives, basically,
that we've heard over and over again.
But one thing really is different this time around --
women. Multiple women.
Multiple women running for president
in the same party at the same time.
Wild, right?
In the 2016 primaries, we saw Carly Fiorina
in the Republican debates,
and of course, we saw Hillary Clinton
on the Democratic stage in 2008 and 2016.
The 2020 election might just give us
the first presidential debate to pass the Bechdel Test.
Women of the world, rejoice!
I wanted to find out more about what it means
to run for president as a woman
and how to watch the primary debates
without falling into sexist stereotypes as a viewer.
So I spoke to Dr. Kelly Dittmar,
an assistant professor of political science
at Rutgers University.
I want to ask you specifically about gender
in a debate setting. -Sure.
-And what kind of things can maybe men get away
with in a debate that women can't.
-It's often the male candidates in a mixed-gender debate
that actually have the most concerns, right?
Because they're concerned that they're gonna look like a bully,
that they're gonna look dismissive of a woman candidate,
too aggressive towards a woman candidate.
-It shouldn't be that hard, right?
But in a supercharged, combative debate setting,
candidates have gone overboard in the past,
like in the year 2000,
when Rick Lazio faced off against Hillary Clinton
in a New York Senate debate, and he did this.
-Sign it right now. -Well, we'll shake --
We'll shake on this, Rick. -No, no, I want your signature
'cause I think everybody wants to see you
signing something that you said you were for.
-That little incident and the way that viewers watched it
and thought, "Yikes!"
is now known as the Lazio Effect,
and it's something male candidates will want to avoid.
That doesn't mean that women candidates
are off the gender hook.
-So, for men, I think those are the concerns.
For women, though, surely,
there are things they're gonna be concerned about.
They have to spend more time thinking about
what they're gonna wear and how they're gonna look
because they're gonna get more scrutiny of it.
We just know that already from voters, from media, from others.
Focus on appearance for women is often much more common.
And voice, right?
When we think of, sort of, positions of authority,
we hear male voices.
That is what we are conditioned to hear and to know.
-Not only do women have to worry about how viewers
will interpret their voices,
but they also have to worry about seeming too emotional.
-Women in particular have to be concerned about getting
too excited, right,
because the understanding of an audience
or somebody might be like, "She was just out of control."
-Thank you all. -Again,
another amplification effect of emotion.
If you have that slight tear, you were bawling.
If you got frustrated, you were angry.
And so that's something else that women
have to be cognizant about.
-A lot of women have probably experienced
this amplification effect in their daily lives,
where you were a little put out
and someone thought you were furious or hysterical.
Now imagine handling that kind of scrutiny,
plus the pressure of being judged
by millions of angry strangers -- the American people.
Do you think that in the Democratic primary debates,
things are gonna be different just because
of the sheer number of women?
Will it somehow make gender less relevant in that setting?
-Yeah.
I'm always averse to ever thinking
that gender is sort of less or more relevant.
In other words, I think it's always relevant.
It's just a question of how.
So, the gender dynamics shift and change,
and even the power dynamics between men and women change
depending on the setting and what's going on
in any given debate in this case.
Typically, when women have been the only one,
the concern among the men, again, about sort of appearing
like they're bullying up on a woman or, again,
sort of being particularly negative towards her,
that concern is actually higher because she stands out.
When there are more women on the stage,
they may be less concerned about that,
and that may be a good thing,
that everybody's just performing in ways
that are less sort of cautious about these
gender stereotypes or gender norms.
That might be positive for everybody, men and women alike.
Of course, the positive note of having
this many women on the debate stage
is that it does start to hopefully normalize
the idea that women are just as likely
and just as capable to be presidential candidates.
-When it comes to debates, though, it takes two to tango.
How can a viewer of the 2020 election and of the debates,
particularly, check themselves
when they might be falling into gender assumptions?
-Yeah, when you're watching a debate,
when you're watching a campaign more generally,
one of the ways is to think about sort of
are you asking the same questions
or raising the same concerns
about the women candidates as you are the men?
So, as they come out on the stage
and you start evaluating that woman's outfits,
check that, right?
Why is it that you're spending more time
focusing on that than her male counterpart?
What potential problems will that lead to?
In other words, are you not paying attention
to what she's saying?
Similarly, with voice, check the sort of biases
and different ways in which you might evaluate men and women.
Understand the ways in which gender
might be shaping your view of it,
as well as how the candidates are behaving.
-I don't think I'm that bad.
-You're likeable enough, Hillary.
No doubt about it.
-Thank you so much.
-So, then a sort of secondary thing
that you can do that's beyond you is evaluate
how the candidates themselves
are navigating gender both for themselves
as well as the interactions they have with moderators
and with the other candidates.
So, do you see ways in which they might be interacting
differently with men, differently with women?
And sort of interrogate why that is.
And then watch the moderators, too.
We have ample evidence in the past
sometimes of moderators being more dismissive,
perhaps, towards women candidates.
So that's something to be cognizant of.
And finally, the numbers of women moderators.
-Well, that's that.
Together, we can end sexism forever!
And all you have to do is check yourself relentlessly
for the assumptions you have about gender
that you've been pummeled with since birth.
Also, you can follow Professor Dittmar during the debates,
who will be live-tweeting with the hashtag
#womenrun2020 for instant gender analysis.