>> Announcer: Live from Seattle Washington,
it's the Cube covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon,
North America, 2018. Brought to you by Redhat,
the CloudNative Computing Foundation,
and it's ecosystem's partners.
(techno music)
>> Okay welcome back everyone.
We are live in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018,
Cube's live coverage three days.
Day one of a full house event here, through 8,000 people,
doubled from last year, I'm John Furrier for Stu Miniman.
Our next two guests are from Red Hat.
Great to have these guys as our guests,
as also thank Red Hat for being great sponsors.
Brian "Redbeard" Harrington,
Cube Alumni Back Product Manager of Service Mesh at Red Hat,
and William Oliveria, Product Manager Serverless at Red Hat,
we'll hear a lot about that.
You guys, first of all, thanks for coming on,
and thanks to your company Red Hat,
for being a great supporter of the Cube and the community,
the contribution you guys have helped up make,
we really appreciate that. Thank you.
>> Absolutely delighted to be here.
>> Happy to be here.
>> John Furrier: Alright, so let's get into it.
So service meshes are hot because now Kubernetes
is kind of like, we're seeing that is totally stabilized,
and now you start to see the engineering,
and the value creation happening in layers.
Shim layers they call here, I got state-full applications.
So you're starting to see service meshes conceptually adopt.
Give us a quick update on where that is,
how real is it, what's the progress, and
what's some of the state-of-the-art activities around it?
>> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] Well the beautiful thing is,
using a service mesh is not anything new at all.
I mean, that was really built to top the Netflix OSS ideas.
They've been around for seven, eight years now.
It's really just kind of decomposing what were a bunch of
individual libraries that you had to implement
into more infrastructure services, so that you know that
you just, regardless of the language, environment, etc.,
you've always got a certain base platform ready to go.
>> John Furrier: Is Service Mesh going to be a standard thing?
Is it going to be, service meshes of your flavor,
is there going to be certain instances custom services?
How do you see that coming out with CSDO, Knative?
There's things evolving.
>> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] Mmhm, yeah.
>> What's the state there, is that going to be the new normal,
or is it going to see settling? What's your view on that?
>> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] I think to some extent,
it depends on the scale that you're at.
If you are at the scale of Yelp or Stripe,
one of those, and using Envoy, you already have a good idea
of what that mesh is going to look like,
so you're building that control plain,
in the way that you need it.
Where Istio and Linker D and some of the other ones come in,
is when you are a smaller scale and you need to figure out
what you're control plane is going to look like,
that's where it really shines,
because it gives you something that you can just
start using and has some training wheels on it
to make sure that you've got a stable platform to use
from day one.
>> Stu Miniman: So one of the other news items today
I wanted to get your opinion on is, EtsyD has been handed
over to Linux Foundation and CNCF, so
EtsyD came out of CoreOS of course, which was acquired
by Red Hat. Give us a little bit of the update as to why
that happened and why it's a good thing for the community.
>> So I think for any stable platform,
it's really been the theme of what I've been talking about,
you've got to know that it's safe to use the software,
that there's going to be a longer term vision,
and a lot of community guidance around that,
and that's why Red Hat made the contribution.
When we were at CoreOS, we really wanted to,
and it was something that was ultimately a goal,
but it kind of became a little bit of a race condition.
Do we go ahead and contribute it,
and then hope that other folks will join us in building it?
Just by open sourcing it, we saw some contributions from
IBM around PowerPC architecture and Maso's,
and other groups coming in,
but putting it just full-bore in the CNCF really guarantees
that there will be ongoing community collaboration.
>> John Furrier: Just to give a shout out to you guys at
CoreOS, you guys did an amazing job,
and I think this is a benefit of the Red Hat relationship,
because that's the start up dilemma you have,
do we get it in there, how do we support it,
how do we make it better, is it competitive,
was our focus what we optimized it for?
But now with the Red Hat piece you guys should lean back,
and do the right thing and get it in there with the right
resource push, is that kind of how it's evolving,
because that seems like what's--
>> It absolutely is. This goes beyond just EtsyD.
The really rad thing is that I think it's safe to say
that there is no part of the CoreOS portfolio
that really isn't getting open sourced.
You can kind of read into that what you will but,
it meant that there was no technology that was getting
left behind, nad that our users who really felt passionately
about pieces of software, again,
we're going to be able to have that utility.
>> Stu Miniman: I think it goes back, we've been at
Red Hat summits for many years and Red Hat is
a hundred percent open sourced, it must be,
and even I go back to Polvey and yourself and Brandon,
all of the tools at CoreOS were creating is,
they were all going to be open sourced tools
that you will be involved in.
I guess William, a good point to bring you into the
conversation, Serverless, and fully open source,
if not been have you thought about it at least for the last
couple of years so, before we get into the Knative,
give us the Red Hat positioning,
where does Serverless fit into the architecture?
And then we'd love to tease out all of the
Knative discussion.
>> Absolutely. For us, Serverless then is a lot about the
user experience, and how we can simplify how developers
can leverage technology such as Itsiu and service meshes
and everything around the developer experience on top of
Kuberneties. Serverless can deliver that and a lot of what
we believe is that, it should not be then tied too much to
functions because we can do that for functions,
but we can do that for any class of applications
actually running on top of the platform,
and that's a lot of why we believe that Knative is this
powerful interesting project going on out there right now.
We already have all these different players collaborating,
which is fantastic for inter-oper ability,
we make sure that we can leverage that implementation
on different platforms, we can run that anywhere pretty much
on top of Kuberneties, and that's a big goal,
to make sure that you can plug all these different parts
as part of a consistent user experience there.
>> Stu Miniman: Okay so we had the cube at the Google event
this summer when it was announced I was at
Serverless conference this year and to be honest,
a lot of people were kind of scratching their heads
trying to understand. Okay, Serverless and Kuberneties are
going together but I'm not sure I quite get it?
Give us the update where are we, when does this get baked
into platforms, what can I do today, where do I learn more?
>> Today, what we are offering is the three big modules
as part of Knative are built, events, and serving.
So it's the basic capabilities for you to build a serverless
platform that, can again, work on any kind of application,
not only functions, and we are at that stage.
The project is very new, we are still in 0.2 release,
at this point, so there's a lot of missing parts
around user experience and what-not,
but we are getting there,
and that's where most of the focus is going on right now.
But with something like events, that's a perfect opportunity
for example, to integrate with all the different services
we have available, let's say on Service Catalog,
or through the operator's framework, for example,
to connect to the applications that you are building
on top of Kuberneties. That was part of the things that
was missing to connect the dots when your implementing those
applications, how are you going to consume events,
how are you going to consume services,
how those applications are going to scale?
That's a lot of what we're addressing
with Knative right now.
>> What's the big walk away around the current event here
at KubeCon? We hear maturity, great, check.
A lot of people are fine in their swim lanes or whatever,
their value layer, check.
Clear a lot more gaps things white space start to appear,
when that visibility lifts.
What do you guys see the opportunities for the community,
and you guys, certainly one of the big players, Red Hat,
leading the way, as this ecosystem is,
I mean companies I've never heard of,
coming out of the woodwork. This is vibrant!
There are opportunities for people to kind of,
play in these white spaces.
Do you guys have any thoughts on
where you could give guidance to
where people could jump in and create value?
>> Well, there's two areas that are really fascinating to me.
One is the fact that now that Kuberneties has gotten to the
level of boarding infrastructure, it means that
there are a lot more companies that are really comfortable
saying, "we're building a top that, we don't care about what
the compute layer is, because we just know".
So you see a lot of organizations that are coming in,
because they want to collaborate with other organizations,
and see how they're using it
to cross pollinate and get new ideas.
That's why you've got full retail companies like
Nordstrom here, that are the local band in town,
and they're happy to come and show off,
and you've also got a lot of, to the second piece of that,
emerging companies that are finding areas,
white space that we didn't consider as the incumbance
in the space, and they're providing direct value.
I think that as we have seen a lot more acquisitions
coming through the space, there is going to be a lot of
opportunity for the organization that has that five,
ten, fifty million dollar idea to come in,
build it quickly, know that it works on top of Kuberneties,
and then be able to port it to Enterprise software that runs
on a local cluster or across clouds.
>> John Furrier: So new business model innovations
are coming out of it as well., hence opportunities.
It's okay to have a fifty million dollar business.
>> Yes.
>> Not bad, and could be acquired as well,
some other value there.
Okay, Microservice is hard to manage.
Guys, talk about this dynamic.
This is one of the things you guys really work hard to
address, I know. We hear a lot about it.
Porting to Microservice, "Hey, I'm in Enterprise!
We should move from our Red Hat Linux implementation,
to full cloud, and then it's going to go all the way to
Microservices." Well, what the hell is Microservices?
So again, this is kind of like, well I'm not saying that
they're thinking that way, but this is not that easy.
How do you guys make it easier?
What are some of the speed bumps that customers hit?
And what are the things to overcome those?
What's your view on that?
>> [William Oliveria] I'll talk about, first of all,
how Knative is contributing to that.
Again, the whole thing that we're talking about,
not being tied to functions is because again,
I want to leverage the serverless capabilities available
in the platform for Microservices as well.
And whenever you're talking about monitoring, tracing,
observe-abilities, Istio comes into play,
and solved that problem and connect all those different
Microservices in a very nice way.
With Knative, things we can improve on the user experience,
so you can do that in a very easy way,
when you are coming from this brown field applications
when you are migrating to the cloud,
when you are trying to port those applications,
it's a big learning curve.
You got to learn about all these different technologies.
So if you can improve that user experience,
so you can do what you do best, which is focus on your code,
and then we can take care of a lot the complexities of
building and wiring together all these different parts
on the platform. We'll do that.
And that's a lot of what we are doing with serverless.
>> That's where the manage piece comes in, right?
>> [William Oliveria] Right.
>> And then the monitoring, that part of it to?
>> Yeaa, well to build on top of that,
there is the organizations that want to still design things
the way that they've been doing it.
And we've had a big focus with a project called Red Hat
OpenShift Application Runtimes, or RHOAR,
which it goes more in the direction of the past concept,
which is a big difference between OpenShift and TechTonic,
for example, and through that, a lot of the RHOAR bundles
for Python and Java and Node.js kind of integrate in the
concepts of distributed tracing and permethius monitoring
and things like that, to make sure that you focus, again,
to William's point, on building the thing that brings
yuour business value and standing on the shoulders
of software at the infrastructure level.
>> That's great stuff and it's a lot more work to do.
>> Yeah, just the last thing, I know Red Hat's been working
on trying to, I don't know if you call it "templatize",
but how do I make it easier for people to,
I'm trying to remember the name of the term for it.
>> Yeah, so it's the OpenShift Application Runtime.
Having what used to be the gear in the old OpenShift realm.
Which is just here is a great template,
a package to start from, so that you can go in and implement
the things that you care about, and really step then into,
the "Okay, we know that the code's going to work okay,
because we built that, we know the application platform
is going to be predictable, we know that we have all of
these additional hooks to manage it."
So hopefully, it lowers the bar,
to make it trivial to get started.
>> That's awesome. Well, Redbeard and William,
thanks for coming on the Cube, really appreciate it.
Just quick plug, what's up next for you guys?
What's on the horizon?
What itch are you scratching these days?
What's getting you motivated?
>> The big things that's exciting for me is
the fourth coming release of OpenShift 4.0,
which gives me the room to shine on the GA release
of all the service mesh stuff.
And then, kind of in parallel, just a lot of the
vector packet processing, FITO, high scale networking stuff
just sends a tingle up my spine.
I love keeping an eye on that
>> For me we just announced a review of Knative and OpenShift
as an add-on. You can just install and run that when you're
on OpenShift, and like what Redbeard said,
I'm looking forward for 4.0 as well,
to make sure that I could plug that user experience on top
of 4.0 and we are already doing a lot for the ops side,
and I'd like to do that also now for our developers as well.
>> Well when you're ready,
we'll pop a digital cork on Twitter, let us know,
we'll certainly cover it.
Thanks for coming out, appreciate the insight.
>> We'll bring you the insights and all the data here at
KubeCon CloudNative.
Of course we're the Cube, don't be confused with KubeCon,
on one of our conferences coming.
But only kidding, we're not going to have that.
Thanks for watching day one, live coverage.
Stay with us for more coverage after this short break.
(techno music)