Hello everybody Jorphdan here the PH is silent.
Bear with me, this is a slightly different video but a topic I wanted to touch on as
a DnD 5e fan and a Dungeon Master.
Counterspell.
This has been something that I have been thinking about for a while and I wanted to get my thoughts
out.
I dislike counterspell, but I like the idea of being able to counter spells.
I feel with how magic works in Dungeons & Dragons one should be able to see a spell being cast
and counter it.
But how counterspell currently works it stops the flow of the game.
It removes the high tension and the cool factor.
So let’s talk about how to fix counterspell.
And if you’re interested I’ll link some videos in the description for further research.
If you look up Counterspell on DnD Beyond there are a bunch of posts trying to fix this
spell, or understand how it works.
Why do people feel that it’s broken?
Well it kind of takes away fun.
As a player if you counter a spell from an opposing spellcaster you feel pretty powerful.
It’s fun to thwart the enemies plans!
But on the reverse it really sucks.
You’re casting a deadly spell to turn the tides of battle, and with a simple reaction
the enemy stops your 7th level Magic Missile.
In older versions of Dungeons and Dragons, and indeed other fantasy table-top role playing
games, wizards had to prepare the number of castings each day.
So if you wanted to cast fireball 3 times, you prepped it three times.
This was an interesting gamble of “how many counterspells do I prep today”?
Too many and you don’t have other useful spells, too few and well you get overwhelmed
by the opponents magic.
A larger problem with Counterspell is the 5e rule where you can’t cast more than one
spell on a turn.
Or that’s my quick way of saying it, really if you cast a spell as a bonus action you
can only cast a cantrip as an action.
So as a spell caster I can’t do something tricky like cast Misty Step as a bonus action,
to get it countered which then allows me to cast fireball like I wanted.
Or let’s say my fireball was countered losing a spell slot, It would be useful if I could
recast it on the same turn.
That’s not allowed by the rules.
But Jorphdan!
You can counterspell a counterspell!!
So what’s the big problem?
Listen.
What does countering a counterspell do in the grand scheme of things?
Rhetorical question, the answer is it uses up spell slots.
If the design principle of counterspell was to burn through spellslots then there are
better ways to do that.
Plus I don’t think the designers of DnD 5th edition were thinking “we have given
our spell casters too many spellslots, we should probably add a counterspell mechanic
forcing them to use their resources faster during combat.”
I think the real problem of counterspell is you can stop someone’s action, with a reaction.
A reaction is an extra ability that you don’t always get to use.
It is situational.
So when I am able to use this situational, out of turn ability to cancel someone else's
full turn action.
That feels cheap, that’s not fun for both Dungeon Master and player.
So how do we fix this.
Well other YouTubers, bloggers, and people in the community have attempted to.
And it should be noted Wizards of the Coast doesn’t believe it’s broken, the counterspell
printed in the PHB and mechanics explained via tweets; they’re happy with it.
So if you are like me and unhappy with counterspell, you’re going to homebrew some fixes until
D&D 5.5 comes out; which hopefully fixes design root problems.
However let’s take a look at what would fix Counterspell.
Number one.
Let’s just remove counterspell.
It doesn’t feel right to me to remove someone’s whole spell action with just a reaction.
D&D 5e spellcasting isn’t balanced around the idea that spells are canceled.
I mean Celrics and Druids can’t even learn counterspell but they can be affected by it.
Perhaps removing the spell all together is the correction option.
I have run several games without counterspell, and we didn’t have any problems.
But!
Countering spells is kind of cool, right?
So here are some other alternatives.
Number two.
Limit counterspell to Arcane casters only.
Arcane Counterspell can only counter other arcane spellcasters.
If a wizard doesn’t really understand how divine magic works, they shouldn’t really
be able to counter it.
Magic is Magic in D&D; but with how many spell schools there are I would argue that divine
magic is simply different from Arcane.
Otherwise why wouldn’t a wizard be able to cast cure wounds?
I don’t really like this option but it does make other spellcasters immune to counterspell
which alleviates the problem, a little bit.
Number three.
Concentration Check, the spell!?
Let’s say we changed counterspell to instead create a concentration check for the target?
Instead of just canceling the spell the target would roll a CON Saving Throw against the
spellcasters Spell Save DC.
If we really wanted to get technical we could add modifiers depending on the level of the
spell to my CON Check for this attack.
This way I could take feats, or equipment that would help me to resist counterspell.
Having options to counteract this spell is one way to solve a hopeless situation.
If there is a chance the spell can still go off that creates tension and everyone’s
watching the dice roll to see if the spell will be countered.
Number four.
Counterspell stops the spell, but doesn’t end the target's action.
If counterspell was cast on your character your spell would fail, it would act as normal.
But you wouldn’t lose your action.
I could still take my turn.
Yes I burned a spell slot and I lost my 7th level spell, but I could still cast a sixth
level spell.
Maybe that’s too strong, maybe it should just be a cantrip instead.
It would need playtesting but the hypothetical tells me that this would be fine.
The player who was counterspelled is a little sad his “Finger of Death” spell was countered,
but he knows that the Lich also lost his 7th level spell slot.
Now the Wizard can still cast Disintegrate, and not feel that his entire turn was a waste.
Number five!
My favorite solution to counterspell comes from another fantasy tabletop RPG!
Shocking we can learn something about RPG design by looking at other RPGs.
Now before I get into this I realize that D&D 5th edition was based on a more simplistic
design.
They wanted it to be accessible to new players while offering customization for the players
that really like to crunch down on the rules.
I personally believe Wizards of the Coast succeeded at this, and I don’t necessarily
want 5e to have complex rules or mini games for every interaction.
It should be left up to the Dungeon Master as to how they really want to play their game.
However saying that, I really like how counterspell is handled in Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG!
If you are new here you probably haven’t heard me rave about DCC RPG but I love it!
If you get a chance check it out, I’ll put some affiliate links below if you want to
get a copy of the rules.
The spellcasting in Dungeon Crawl Classics was created to reflect how unstable magic
can be.
In D&D 5e magic is very reliable, with damage being the only unpredictable state left up
to a dice roll.
Despite that you still have a strong sense of how much damage a spell will do.
If I toss a fireball it will do damage, I can’t tell you the exact amount; but I know
the location, the radias, the damage type, and who is getting hit.
D&D 5e magic is very specific, and spells are something that are understandable, and
repeatable.
Dungeon Crawl Classics is a game trying to convey the opposite.
Magic is dangerous.
In the world of DCC you wouldn’t use a light cantrip when you can use a reliable torch.
This isn’t necessarily a high or low magic setting.
Magic might be very prevalent, but it is dangerous and shouldn’t be played with.
Your light cantrip might blind you, or fire an iron man repulsor blast.
You don’t get the same effect every time.
Plus when adding magic to the situation to counter a spell or dispel magic, you’re
basically fighting fire with fire.
Yes it can work, but it could also blow up in your face.
There is a risk there, and that’s what I want for counterspell in D&D 5e.
Something risky, something unexpected to really push the player into thinking “Is this the
best decision?”
On the one hand I could save my friends, on the other I could expand the enemies spell
to double its size.
Dungeon Crawl Classics has a mechanic known as spell duels.
And I’d like to implement something similar to replace counterspell.
It’s a sub system during a combat encounters that is only between two spellcasters.
Sort of like a mini game during regular combat.
There is no spell called “Counterspell”; instead you have to counter a spell from a
caster with the same spell.
A Lich casting Cone of Cold, you counter it with Cone of Cold.
This solves some problems I had earlier where a wizard can stop a cleric from casting spells.
If the wizard doesn’t know Healing Word he’s not canceling it, but the Bard could
stop a Cleric casting Healing Word.
However in DCC RPG Dispel Magic can be used to counter any spell, working much like the
5e Counterspell.
I’d say optional rule if you wanted to add that.
So how does this spell dueling work?
Going back to our Lich and Wizard Example.
On the Lich’s turn in initiative they cast Cone of Cold, the Wizard announces he wants
to counter it with either Cone of Cold, Dispel Magic, or a DM approved spell that would counter
Cone of Cold.
Once the Wizard announces this he moves forward instantly in initiative order, but loses his
normal turn when it comes around.
So you interrupt like a reaction, but at the cost of your main action.
The Lich (DM) and the Wizard (PC) place a d20 in front of them as a momentum tracker,
and each sets it to 10.
Next each spellcaster makes their spell checks (which is a DCC mechanic) but for D&D 5e we
would have each one make an Arcana Check, or perhaps just a spell attack.
The winner is the roller with the higher number and they would move their momentum d20 up
by 1.
In this example the Lich wins and his d20 now reads 11, while the wizards reads 10.
After this DCC spell dueling has a separate table to roll on that is modified by the momentum
difference between casters, and the difference between the spell checks.
Changing this for D&D 5e let’s say we’re just adding the difference between the spell
checks plus the momentum.
So the Lich rolls a 12+6 = 18 on his spell check, while the Wizard rolls a 10+6 = 16.
The difference is 2, with a momentum of 1 in favor of the Lich who won the spell duel.
So 3!
In order to reflect DCC RPG’s spell duel mechanics in Dungeons and Dragons 5e we’d
need to create a defensive and offensive spell interaction list.
In this case the Lich won and would roll on the Offensive spell interaction list with
a +3.
This could be a d20 table, or a d100 table, it hasn’t been created yet for D&D!
But that +3 is the amount of magic that the Lich succeeded with.
Let’s say it’s a d20 list, so the Lich rolls 1d20+3 and we get a 6.
At a 6 it says the defensive spell slightly works, reducing offensive spell damage by
2d4.
However if he rolled high say a 19 perhaps his Cone of Cold absorbed the incoming magic,
and now instead of 8d8 it actually does 8d10.
If the situation was reversed a low roll on the Defense Spell Interaction Table would
mean you negated the spell, but not all of it.
At a higher level perhaps you reflect the spell back at the caster.
In the nature of D&D 5e the counterspell table we’d need to create would have better and
bigger effects with a higher roll.
The duel is now over, the Lich still got his spell off with an action, but the Wizard used
his action and spell slot to reduce the damage.
Not the best outcome for the wizard but if they had won the spell duel they might have
stopped the spell altogether or even reflected it back at the Lich.
As the combat continues if the Wizard counterspells the Lich again they would repeat this process
which adjusts the momentum tracker even more, in favor of the Lich or the Wizard.
It is beneficial to win early and get ahead, but you can still win with a negative momentum
to your Spell Duel d20 table.
If ever two spell attacks during a duel are equal (such as both roll a 16) then magical
energies collide and you’d roll on yet another table detailing what might happen.
In DCC RPG this is called the “Phlogiston Disturbance” and it’s spooky for both
monster and party.
Criticism of this system (this mini game) is that, yes it is complex.
Is it too complex for D&D 5e?
Perhaps.
I believe with all the frustrations around counterspell it’s a viable solution.
And maybe it could just be presented as a variant rule.
If WotC ever tries to fix Counterspell, they’ll probably keep the original rules in there.
Just an alternative mode of play for experienced players.
My push overall is to keep the action flowing.
If you don’t think counterspell just pulls the break on momentum of the game watch this
compilation from Critical Role where counterspell does exactly that… over and over and over.
Thanks for watching everyone.
Let me know in the comments below if you like this idea for counterspell.
Is Counterspell fine as it is and I’m just complaining?
Do you hate counterspell and what are your fixes?
I’d love to read your comments.
I make weekly lore videos, and perhaps if you like this format more D&D 5e fixing videos!
I have DMs Guild reviews, and I prep my D&D 5e Forgotten Realms game “The Rod of Seven
Parts” every Sunday morning at Noon Eastern, and we play that game live on Twitch.tv/nerdimmersion
8:30eastern Wednesday nights.
Thanks for watching everyone.
I’ll see you all in the next video!