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>> Stephen: WELCOME BACK, EVERYBODY.
MY GUEST TONIGHT HAS SPENT OVER THREE DECADES IN GOVERNMENT AND
SERVED AS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR.
HIS NEW BOOK ABOUT HIS TIME IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS
CALLED "THE ROOM WHERE IT HAPPENED."
PLEASE WELCOME AMBASSADOR JOHN BOLTON!
AMBASSADOR, THANKS FOR BEING WITH US TONIGHT.
>> GLAD TO BE WITH YOU.
>> Stephen: HOW THICK IS YOUR SKIN?
BECAUSE YOU'VE GOTTEN A LOT OF CRITICISM ABOUT WAITING TO TELL
ALL THIS INFORMATION IN THE BOOK, RATHER THAN SPEAKING OUT
EARLIER.
HAVE YOU GOTTEN USED TO THAT?
>> WELL, YOU NEVER GET USED TO IT ENTIRELY, BUT I THINK THERE
ARE VERY IMPORTANT REASONS WHY I DIDN'T DO IT, WHY I THAT YOU
WANT THE IMPEACHMENT EFFORT LED BY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVESES,
DEMOCRATS, BADLY GUIDED, BADLY MISTAKEN --
>> Stephen: I'VE HEARD THOSE, BECAUSE I'VE SEEN SOME OF THE
INTERVIEWS.
I'M JUST CURIOUS HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT PEOPLE CRITICIZING YOU
ABOUT THAT?
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S PART OF BEING IN WASHINGTON THESE
DAYS.
I THINK IF YOU DON'T HAVE A THICK SKIN, MAYBE YOU OUGHT TO
THINK ABOUT ANOTHER LINE OF WORK.
I'M NOT SAYING I ENJOY T.B.I.
ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION, BUT IF YOU'RE NOT PREPARED FOR
IT, YOU'RE JUST NOT GOING TO BE HEARD IN THE WASHINGTON DEBATE.
>> Stephen: GOOD, THAT WILL MAKE THIS INTERVIEW EASIER.
>> FAIR WARNING.
>> Stephen: DONALD TRUMP CALLED YOU A TRAITOR.
AND SOME PEOPLE OUT THERE MIGHT THINK YOU HAVE AN AXE TO GRIND
AGAINST THE G.O.P.
HOW CONSERVATIVE ARE YOU?
>> WELL, THE EXACT OPPOSITE IS TRUE.
LOOK, I GOT MY START IN POLITICS AT THE RIPE OLD AGE OF 15,
HANDING OUT LEAFLETS FOR BARRY GOLDWATER IN 1964.
I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE REPUBLICAN --
>> Stephen: YOU SOUND LIKE FUN!
>> YEAH.
BELIEVE ME.
I WAS A WHITE HOUSE SUMMER INTERN FOR SPIRO AGNEW IN 1972.
>> Stephen: UH-HUH.
>> I WORKED-- THAT WAS BEFORE BEING A WHITE HOUSE INTERN WAS
FAMOUS.
I WONDER IN THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION.
I WORKED IN BOTH BUSH ADMINISTRATIONS.
I HAVE WRITTEN MORE OP-EDS THAN I CAN COUNT, GIVEN SPEECHES.
I'VE BEEN A CONSERVATIVE ALL MY LIFE.
AND TO ME, THIS IS-- THIS IS ABOUT PHILOSOPHY.
IF I DIDN'T FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT IT-- I DIDN'T HAVE TO GO INTO
GOVERNMENT.
YOU CERTAINLY DON'T GO INTO GOVERNMENT FOR FINANCIAL
REASONS.
I JUST COULD HAVE STAYED IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND PRACTICED LAW
AFTER I GOT OUT OF LAW SCHOOL.
BUT TO ME, PARTICULARLY IN THE NATIONAL SECURITY FIELD, IT'S
PHILOSOPHY DRIVEN.
AND THAT WAS ONE OF MY PRINCIPAL PROBLEMS WITH DONALD TRUMP AS I
EXPERIENCED IT.
>> Stephen: YOU KNOW, YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO GO INTO
GOVERNMENT, AND YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO GO INTO THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION.
YOU HAD TO KNOW THAT THAT WAS A-- A WHIRLPOOL OF CHAOS IN
THERE, EVEN THOSE OF US LOOKING FROM THE OUTSIDE WHO NEVER GOT
TO GO IN COULD SEE IT.
WHY DID YOU GO IN KNOWING HOW CHAOTIC IT WAS?
DID YOU THINK THAT CHAOS WAS A LADDER THAT YOU COULD CLIMB AND
DO THE RIGHT THING?
>> I CERTAINLY HEARD ALL THE STORIES.
BUT I HAD ALSO SPOKEN WITH TRUMP BEFORE HE WAS ELECTED, AFTER HE
TOOK OFFICE.
AND IT WAS MY BELIEF THAT-- THAT THIS COULD BE OVERCOME, THAT YOU
COULD SET UP AN ORDERLY PROCESS TO ADVANCE WHAT I THOUGHT WERE
POLICIES THAT TRUMP FELT COMFORTABLE WITH, POLICIES HE
HAD ARTICULATED IN SPEECHES DURING THE CAMPAIGN.
AND FOR THOSE WHO SAY, "BUT, YOU KNOW, TRUMP AND BOLTON NEVER GOT
ALONG" ALL I CAN SAY IS I WAS ON FOX FOR OVER 10 YEARS, AND I
DON'T THINK ANYBODY'S EVER CRITICIZED ME FOR BEING SHY
ABOUT MY OPINIONS.
HE SAW ME ALL TIME.
IF HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT I WAS SAYING, I HONESTLY DON'T
KNOW WHAT I COULD HAVE DONE TO SAY IT ANY CLEARER.
SO I ENTER, I THINK AWARE OF THE PROBLEMS, BUT OPTIMISTIC THAT
THEY COULD BE OVERCOME.
AND THE BOOK IS THE STORY, PERHAPS, ABOUT HOW I WAS WRONG
ABOUT THAT.
>> Stephen: THE BOOK IS PACKED WITH SHOCKING REVELATIONS THAT
REALLY SHOULDN'T BE SHOCKING, BECAUSE THEY SEEM SO TRUE TO
FORM FOR DONALD TRUMP.
AS NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, YOU SAW INTERACTION BETWEEN
TRUMP AND WORLD LEADERS, AND YOU DEPICT TRUMP AS SOMEONE WITH A
SOFT SPOT FOR AUTOCRATS.
WHO TOOK ADVANTAGE OF THAT THE MOST OF HIS SOFT SPOT?
>> EVERYONE OF THEM.
IT'S A CLOSE RACE TO SEE WHO COULD SEE THROUGH HIM THE
CLEAREST AND TRY TO MANIPULATE HIM.
XI JINPING, VLADIMIR PUTIN, KIM JONG-UN, ERDOGAN OF TURKEY.
THERE'S A LONG LIST OF THEM.
TO ME THAT WAS OBVIOUSLY VERY TROUBLING.
THE PRESIDENT DOESN'T DNT STUDY THE FACTS OF THE ISSUES HE HAD
TO DISCUSS WITH THESE LEADERS.
HE DIDN'T PREPARE TO THE EXTENT HE SHOULD.
THERE WERE SOME CASE WHERE'S WE WERE ABLE TO BRIEF HIM.
BUT BASICALLY-- AND HE WOULD SAY THIS TO HIS ADVISERS AND OTHERS,
HE WANTED TO DO THIS THE SAME WAY HE DID REAL ESTATE DEALS IN
NEW YORK, AND MAYBE THAT'S THE WAY OTHERS DO THEM, TOO.
BUT TO GO IN WITH KIND OF HIS GUT FEELING, HE WOULD SAY THAT
HE COULD MAKE A NUCLEAR DEAL WITH IRAN IN A DAY.
THAT HE COULD JUSTMENT SIZE KIM JONG-UN UP IN A FEW MINUTES, AND
THEY COULD CUT A DEAL VERY QUICKLY.
IT'S JUST NOT REALISTIC.
BUT HE NEVER UNDERSTOOD THAT.
I ALWAYS HAD THE FEELING, SITTING IN THESE MEETINGS, THAT
THEY COULD SEE RIGHT THROUGH HIM.
IT WAS NOT A FAIR FIGHT.
>> Stephen: BUT NONE OF THAT COULD BE SURPRISING BECAUSE YOU
SAW FROM THE CAMPAIGN THAT HE WAS A COMPLETELY INCURIOUS
PERSON WHO HAD NO INTEREST IN KNOWLEDGE OR THE TRUTH.
SO YOU'VE SAID THAT HE HAS NO PHILOSOPHY, AND THAT THAT ITSELF
IS VERY DANGEROUS.
WHAT'S MORE DANGEROUS: NO PHILOSOPHY OR A PHILOSOPHY THAT
YOU DISAGREE WITH?
>> WELL, I THINK IT'S WHAT THEY CALL IN THE ARMS CONTROL WORLD
"INEXRENSERABLES."
I THINK THE CHOICE I FACE-- AND I THINK MANY OTHERS FROM THE
REPUBLICAN SIDE FACE IN NOVEMBER-- IS A DEMOCRAT WHO WE
DISAGREE WITH, JOE BIDEN, WITH A REPUBLICAN THAT WE DON'T THINK
IS UP TO THE JOB.
IT'S NOT A HAPPY CHOICE.
I THINK-- I THINK THAT'S-- THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I WISH WE
COULD FIND A WAY AROUND.
I DON'T-- I DON'T SEE IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, THOUGH.
THOUGH.
>> Stephen: YOU SAY THAT TRUMP HAD A PENCHANT TO GIVE PERSONAL
FAVORS FOR THE DICTATOR HE'S LIKED.
AND THAT HE-- HE WANTED TO ESTABLISH A PERSONAL
RELATIONSHIP WITH THESE PEOPLE, AND THESE FAVORS WERE SORT OF A
WAY OF ESTABLISHING HIS PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS.
ARE THOSE PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS REALLY IMPORTANT IN
INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, OR IS IT JUST KIND OF SHOW BUSINESS
FRIENDSHIPS THAT AREN'T THAT MEANINGFUL?
>> WELL, IT VARIES, OF COURSE.
BUT I DO THINK THERE'S A ROLE FOR PERSONAL RELATIONS.
IT'S EASIER IF THERE'S AN ABILITY TO TALK BETWEEN TWO
LEADERS, WHETHER THEY'RE ALLIES OR ADVERSARYS.
BUT I THINK THE PRESIDENT HAD TROUBLE DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN A
GOOD PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH MR. "X", AND THE TRUTH ABOUT THE
BILATERAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES.
I DON'T THINK, FOR EXAMPLE, VLADIMIR PUTIN OR XI JINPING HAD
ANY TROUBLE DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN THOSE TWO THINGS.
BUT I DO THINK DONALD TRUMP DID.
THAT WAS ONE OF THE REASONS THAT I FELT HE WAS ALWAYS SO
VULNERABLE TO MANIPULATION.
>> Stephen: I ASSUME THAT YOU SPEAK TO YOUR FELLOW LONG-TERM
CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS WHO HAVE SERVED MULTIPLE
ADMINISTRATIONS.
WHAT ARE THEY SAYING BEHIND CLOSED DOORS?
I MEAN THERE ARE HIGH-PROFILE THINGS LIKE THE LINCOLN PROJECT
AND "REPUBLICANS AGAINST TRUMP."
BUT WHEN THE CAMERAS ARE OFF, WHAT'S THE CONSERVATIVE OPINION
OF DONALD TRUMP?
>> WELL, LOOK, I THINK MANY OF THEM, IN FAIR TONS TRUMP, LOOK
AT THE COMPARISON AND, AS I DID IN 2016 WITH HILLARY CLINTON,
LOOK AT THE COMPARISON WITH JOE BIDEN, AND SAY WHATEVER WEEK OF
HIM, HE'S NOT GOING TO BE A DEMOCRAT SUBJECT, ESPECIALLY
THESE DAYS, TO THE PRESSURE OF THE LEFT.
LOOK, I BOUGHT THAT ARGUMENT IN 2016.
>> Stephen: NO, HE'S GOING TO BE SUBJECT TO THE PRESSURE OF
VLADIMIR PUTIN AND XI JINPING.
HE'S A PERSON WILLING TO SELL OUT THE INTEREST OF THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE FOR HIS OWN RE-ELECTION.
WHAT COULD BE WORSE IN HILLARY CLINTON OR JOE BIDEN'S
PHILOSOPHY THAN BETRAYING YOUR COUNTRY TO A HOSTILE FOREIGN
LEADER?
>> TRUST ME, I UNDERSTAND THAT POINT.
WHAT -- >> Stephen: WELL, WILL YOU
ANSWER THAT QUESTION?
>> I'M TRYING TO.
>> Stephen: OKAY, I'M SORRY.
MY APOLOGIES.
GO AHEAD.
>> WHAT-- WHAT-- WHAT I THOUGHT IN 2016 WAS WE AT LEAST HAVE TO
TRY IT OUT.
AND SO I VOTE FOR TRUMP.
HAVING EXPERIENCED 17 MONTHS OF WORKING WITH HIM, I CAN'T IN
GOOD CONSCIENCE DO THAT AGAIN.
AND THAT'S WHY I'M NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR HIM, AND I'M NOT GOING
TO VOTE FORED BY GREN.
>> Stephen: I GUESS WHAT'S EXASPERATING IS THERE IS
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING DONALD TRUMP HAS DONE THAT IS SURPRISING TO
ME.
MY RULE IS EVERYTHING THAT YOU THINK ABOUT DONALD TRUMP IS
PROBABLY TRUE.
BECAUSE HE'S NOT DEEP ENOUGH TO GET YOUR SOCKS WET IN.
HE'S INCREDIBLY READABLE.
THAT'S WHY WHEN HE RAN CASINOS, THE HOUSE LOST.
THERE'S NOTHING TO LEARN ABOUT HIM.
THAT'S WHY HE'S ESSENTIALLY A BORING PERSON.
HOW DID YOU NOT KNOW BEFOREHAND THAT HE WAS JUST HOLLOW?
>> BECAUSE I COULDN'T BELIEVE IT WAS THAT BAD.
AND I KNOW OTHER PEOPLE SAY THEY SAW IT FROM THE BEGINNING --
>> Stephen: BUT YOU'RE AN INTERNATIONAL NEGOTIATOR.
HOW COULD YOU BE NAIVE?
YOU'VE DEALT WITH THE WORST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.
>> YOU'VE REALLY INSULTED ME NOW BY CALLING ME NAIVE.
LOOK, I THOUGHT IT WAS POSSIBLE TO WORK WITH SOMEBODY.
I THOUGHT SURELY THEY WOULD WANT TO LEARN ABOUT THE COMPLEXITYES
OF ARMS CONTROL NEGOTIATIONS AND THAT SORT OF THING.
AND AS I DETAIL IN THE BOOK, THAT TURNED OUT NOT TO BE TRUE.
>> Stephen: AMBASSADOR, WE HAVE TO TAKE A QUICK BREAK, BUT
STICK AROUND, EVERYBODY.
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH MORE AMBASSADOR JOHN BOLTON.
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