>> From Palo Alto, California, it's theCUBE
covering VMware Women Transforming Technology 2019,
brought to you by VMware.
>> Hi, I'm Lisa Martin with theCUBE on the ground
at VMware in Palo Alto California
for the fourth annual Women Transforming Technology event,
WT-squared, excited to welcome back to theCUBE Cathy Chow,
the VP of RNG Operations and Central Services at Vmware.
Cathy it's a pleasure to have you back.
>> It's wonderful to be back Lisa.
>> So you and I saw each other this morning,
big hug, this is one of my favorite events to be at
and I'm proud to be here with theCUBE
because this authentic community of women
is unlike anything that I've really seen
or felt in a long time.
Fourth annual, I know it's grown over last year.
What are some of your thoughts
even just walking in the doors this morning?
>> Well it's funny, it is the fourth annual
and I've been to all four.
The very first time I came I was not a VMware employee
and I fell in love with the company, the campus
because it was the very first time
and every single time I come to one of these events,
I either meet someone or multiple people that are fantastic
or I learn multiple things that will help me do
what I need to do and I will tell you
and I'm not just saying 'cause you're here
but last year when I met you,
I just felt like there was an instant spark
and like you say, at these conferences,
don't you feel it's safe, you can you can be authentic,
you can be who you want to be.
You can be vulnerable.
>> Absolutely, yes.
>> Right and we can learn with each other,
We can share what we need to work on,
what we need to improve on
and we can also beat our chests a little bit, right
for stuff that we've done well.
>> That sharing is so critical.
Of all the women that I've spoken to today,
if we look at even our own career trajectories
or looking at a lot of the statistics
of the loading numbers of women in technology
where is the attrition happening?
What's happening in grade school, in middle school
when girls are you know, between seven and 12 years old,
we have to help each other build up confidence.
And I think there's no better way than sharing stories
and to your point, that means being vulnerable.
I think vulnerability is one
of the best traits you can exhibit, period
but you truly can see and feel the impact here
and as you've said, you've seen that
over the last four years
that this is really an authentic community
in every sense of the word.
>> Absolutely and you know,
you've mentioned quite a few things
that I'd like to talk about.
So first is these young,
let's start first with diversity, okay.
I know a lot of people do talk about the,
they think of gender diversity or ethnic diversity.
Diversity with the capital D is much broader, right.
It's a diversity of experience, education you know,
geography, seniority, right,
there's all different types of diversity
but if we do help focus in a little bit on young girls,
right, because you think about that.
I was just at the iWish conference in Cork Ireland.
>> I saw that, yeah.
>> And what was amazing about that was,
so this is all of Cork County, they had all of the,
what they called secondary school girls,
every single one of them for two days at this conference
where they got to listen to speakers from all over the world
to give them that confidence to stay in
because statistics are,
when they're in primary school or middle school, right,
girls say, I want to be a computer scientist,
I want to do this techy thing, I want to do stem
but then when they go to high school,
they're given all these messages like you can't do it
and you don't look like a computer scientist, right
and then all of a sudden it gets in our head
and it really does affect our confidence
and then sad to say, years and years ago
when I graduated from college, there was only nine percent
of the women where mechanical engineers.
Sad to say today that number has not too much
and we got to do something.
Just conferences like these that give us the courage
to be better mentors and sponsors of those
that will come after us.
>> I agree I think that it's,
and in some cases it seems like it's so simple.
I don't think we're making this so hard
but I think that having the opportunity of a community
to just have like-minded people in terms of experiences
that they've shared.
Well how did you get through this barrier
of for example you know, really kind of dissecting
to your point diversity with a capital D.
There's so many layers to that.
What does that mean, how do we achieve it.
I mean if you look at a lot of the statistics,
companies that have say females on the executive staff
are like 27% more profitable.
The amount of an reinvesting of income that women do back
into the community and their families.
One of the things Joy said this morning
in her keynote, Joy (mumbles),
I think I'm saying that right. >> I think so. (chuckles)
>> Is looking at women and people of color
as the underrepresented majority.
I thought that was absolutely spot-on.
>> I absolutely thought it was spot-on as well
and you know if you think about it,
you think about these experiences
again we talk about diversity, there's a new,
I don't know if it's a new phrase
but intersectionality is the word
which means you know okay, you're a woman, I'm a woman,
I'm an Asian woman but I'm also a woman
that lived on the East Coast,
I went to these sorts of schools,
I had these types of experiences.
So what that means is everyone brings something to the table
so if you really think about diversity now,
you will hear this talk about inclusion
that's kind of a big word
and I've actually witnessed this myself on my own team
because if you look at my direct staff,
on paper when you look at them,
they look very diverse but actually diversity,
that's like the tip of the iceberg.
What you see is only the little piece.
When you bring down, get to those deeper layers,
you realize really how diverse the team is, right.
Spiritual diversity, experiential, all of that
and by including and creating a inclusive environment,
we were able to get the most out of diversity
and I think that's how you do it
because I thought about this,
when you single out groups,
you're not being inclusive, right.
>> That's a good point.
>> So I think the goal is to get what we can call the model,
what we think is the majority which is the minority
to embrace the underrepresented majority.
>> And in your perspective,
how do you think VMware is doing on it?
I was talking with Betsy Setter earlier and some other folks
and learned that, I don't know how far down this goes
but at least Execs are actually,
their bonuses are related to or tied to diversity
and inclusion, that's a huge kind of bold statement
that a company like VMware is making,
not just to the tech industry but to every industry.
Where do you think VMware is on this journey
of really identifying diversity and inclusion
and actually starting
to realize the positive impacts from it?
>> Yes, so first of all I think you'd said something earlier,
this is a, it's an epidemic situation okay
in that, you tell me, almost in every industry there is,
entertainment, manufacturing, high-tech, legal,
professional, whatever, there's an issue with diversity
and you're absolutely right, VPs and above,
our bonuses are tied to diversity and inclusion.
The awareness at VMware is second in them.
The interesting thing is there's no silver bullet.
If it were that easy, we would have solved it.
So what it is, it's that one of those things
where I say it takes a village and it's little things
like I, when we talked about inclusion earlier right,
just hey, when you have a meeting,
make sure everyone's voices are heard.
Doesn't matter who it is.
I don't care if it's a woman, an under-represent minority
or white male, it doesn't matter.
>> It shouldn't matter.
>> It shouldn't, right, everyone should be heard
and I was just giving a breakout talk
about when you increase inclusion,
you will drive more innovation
and that's my job as a leader of 600 folks
in an RD organization is to create that culture
that allows people to have confidence, to take risks,
to be vulnerable, authentic and to innovate right
and to do new things and if I can create
that culture of inclusion,
it will drive those business results.
>> I couldn't agree more.
Tell me about, like since we spoke last year.
I love that driving inclusion to drive innovation.
What are some of the things that you've actually seen
as outcomes maybe just for your team as well
as your own expertise as a manager.
>> Yes, so I've been with VMware for two and a half years
and when I first came,
basically my team was a compilation of three separate teams.
So each of them, the traditional silo
knew themselves in their own silo
but did not understand the power of the team across.
So at that time no one team was greater
than a hundred people okay let's say.
Now imagine a mighty force of 600 strong marching
in the same direction trying to do things together.
One of the things that we're trying to do
is start to build platforms across our organization
and what are the commonalities, not the differences,
what are the commonalities across our teams
so that we can drive that innovation much more effectively
and efficiently and so those are some of the things
that we're doing and i have another fun story to tell.
The other thing that I do
to try to create an inclusive environments
is just have opportunities for team members
to meet each other.
It's as simple as hey, I don't know Lisa
Lisa what do you do?
Oh my gosh, I have a project that might need your help.
I don't know how many times
when we were working in the silos,
we would end up calling someone outside our team
to get the expert advice when it was on our own team
and so we had one event where we had two people
that sat next to each other,
they didn't know each other at all,
one needed some machine learning expertise,
the other one was a machine learning enthusiast,
they came together,
they have now built a patent-pending piece
of micro-service called Insta-ML.
So that's what happens when people, when you're included.
>> And you think why is this so difficult.
In some cases technology's sort of the fuels that, right
because we get so used to being,
I can do everything from here on my phone
from an airplane, from the hotel, from home from wherever.
So we get more used to being less communicative.
>> Absolutely right.
>> To, let's actually, let's go back
to the olden days where there was no device in front of us
and actually have a conversation
because to your point, suddenly you're uncovering,
oh my gosh all of these skill sets are here,
we didn't know this for years.
>> You're speaking my language. (laughs)
You're absolutely right.
There used to be this rule that said,
when you wanted to communicate to someone,
you'd have to tell them something seven times, right
because they're busy doing other things.
Well in the age of social media,
they say now it's 11 times.
>> Oh great, it's going up.
>> Exactly so how often have you seen people
who are sitting like this and they're communicating
with each other via text and they're sitting right here.
Why it's important to go back old-school
and by the way, I'm big time old-school.
Whenever I want to pick up the phone, talk to my kids,
it's on the phone.
I don't care if they're ready for me to talk to them or not,
I just call them, it's because,
when you're innovating it's not just the mind it's the heart
and when you capture those human relationships, right,
is what makes the innovation stick.
It makes you want to do more, it makes you want
to achieve greater heights than you would have
because you're invested you see.
When it's an academic exercise, it's like check the box
but when you're invested and your heart's in it,
I feel like I can't let Lisa down.
Believe me you're going to get more in depth
and more advanced innovation.
>> So with that and kind of the empathy approach,
I'd love to get your perspectives on AI.
We talk about it all the time
at every event that we go to on theCUBE globally
and there's different schools of thought.
AI is fantastic, it's phenomenal,
it's becoming a new standard even if baby boomers know
to some degree what it is
then there's the, it's taking jobs away.
Some go, but it's going to create new jobs.
Then there's the the whole ethics behind it.
This morning, Joy really kind of showed us a lot
of the AI models and facial recognition
at big companies that are being built with bias
but one of the things I think that I hear resoundingly
at events is it's going to be a combination of humans
and machines because machines can learn a lot
but it's that part that you just mentioned
and that empathy that comes from the human.
So do you see those two as essential forces coming together
as AI continues to grow and take over the world?
>> It's essential.
Like you say technology is very neutral, okay.
If you put it in front of a bad actor,
it becomes bad if you put it in front of a good actor,
it becomes good okay so technology is neutral right.
So now the goal is how do we ensure
that we can tamp down the bad actors,
the people who want to use it for bad
and by the way I am a fundamental believer
that there are some jobs that should be automated, right
I mean come on, and by the way things in the health industry
where you have big data
and you've got a lot of things you have
to process a lot of information
so we can be more accurate on things.
There are other examples of if it's not in check,
it can go awry, right where we are over reliant
on machines unfortunately the 737 MAX 8 is an example
of it being too smart right
and that you needed the human to actually adjust
and so now I think also kind of combining a lot
of the topics that we talked about,
we need to train our children to understand
that this technology is here to stay
and with each and every one of them,
how can they take that wonderful technology
and use it for good and I think that's the whole,
that's the piece around inclusion,
that's the piece around building confidence
in these young people and being examples
and so we need more people like Joy out there
so that, she has now raised this flag up saying,
hey did you realize this happened.
We need more young people,
by the way she's a very young person,
I'm totally impressed with what she's been able to do
in her very few years.
Very, very inspiring but if we all did a little bit
of what Joy did, we could change the world.
>> Absolutely, the accountability factor
and the social responsibility is so important.
I was impressed with her on many levels
but one of them was the impact
that she's already making with Microsoft, IBM
and actually starting to impact facial recognition AI
based on the research that she's done
and show them hey, you've got some problems here.
So she's kind of at that intersection of your point,
neutral technology, good actors, bad actors.
Maybe it's not good or bad it's just,
well this is the data that we have
and it's training the models to do this
but the the accountability and the responsibility
that it appears that a Microsoft and IBM and Face++
and even Amazon that she said,
hey guys look at how far off your models are.
It sounds like these companies are actually starting
to take some accountability and responsibility for this.
>> Yes, well I think she proved it in her talk
because last year, right the numbers were
in the 80 percentiles and now they're up to 95.
So you know she's saying by kind
of being that lightning rod on this issue.
One person can make this amount of change.
Imagine if all of us just did a fraction
of what she did, right.
I mean I think, and again I feel very,
I guess as I'm older and I have my own children,
just inspiring this generation to,
so we can build up more Joys in this world.
>> So you have four boys.
>> Yes.
>> How are you inspiring them to not only become good humans
but also to look at the technology,
the opportunities that it creates
to be inclusive, why it's important.
What are some of the lessons
that you've imparted on your boys.
>> Yes, first of all, one thing that's really important to me
is I want them to accept whoever their partner will be
for whatever they want to do.
So if their partner wants to stay home
and you know then do you support them.
If they want to work and go do, then you support them
but just be supportive, be that partner,
whatever that is, that's really important.
The other thing is, I think just my husband
and I are excellent examples of how that is
because he's an orthodontist
and I've got a busy high-tech job, I'm traveling a lot.
My husband does more than his fair share
of the household duties and we split things pretty evenly
so I hope they've seen, witness, it's not just talk,
it's action and that this can actually work
and fortunately boys are a little older now
because in the beginning I thought o-oh,
I'm working, I don't know how these boys are going
to turn out, right but three of them are college age
and older and they've really turned
into some fantastic children.
The youngest is on his path as well
as a junior in high school
and I also see the type of friends that they make
and how they treat women and other people
that are different from them and just makes me very proud.
>> I think the world needs more Kathy Chows.
>> Chuckles.
>> I really do.
Are you going off to see Ashley Jad with her?
>> I'm going to. >> What are some of the things
that you're looking forward to hearing her talk about?
>> Well it's funny, I just came from a VP session.
She is, again you see someone right on the screen
and you see them as an actor
and you heard about Time's Up and her speech
and that sort of thing but to,
we had about an hour where she just answered questions.
She is so thoughtful, so connected, so well-spoken,
communicates in a way that really touches you.
She's another one of those lightning rods.
I think WT2 did an excellent job
of getting their speakers this year
and it's very different from Joy.
It's much more from her view in her mind, right in the arts
and Joy's was much more from a technical aspect
but the messages are the same right.
It's to be inclusive, understand and embrace diversity
and be authentic, be you.
>> Inclusive innovators, Cathy, so great to have you back
on theCUBE and shall we,
I know we could keep chatting but we thank you so much
for your time, we can't wait for next year.
>> Can't wait.
>> Excellent, thank you. >> See you, Lisa, thank you.
>> For theCUBE, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching the show
from Women Transforming Technology fourth annual
at Vmware, thanks for watching.
(light electronic music)