– I'm not gonna go to the Christmas party,
I would personally never be hesitant with that.
I am different like that concept..
I don't want to come across being too different
but we are different and we should be proud of that
and we should be open like you're saying earlier..
– They were like – Oh but like can't you just sort of
do it but not really say what you are?
I'm like no, I can't do it.
They'd be like – Oh but you know all religion..
Like they would try like they'd make a very concerted effort
to try and dissuade me from identifying as a Muslim
and then also from practicing it..
– You're really exposing everybody, gender boundaries..
– When you do make for it..
when you do come in contact with other gender
sometimes they just especially if they don't know
if you don't put boundaries they already without you knowing they touch you
or touch your arm or your face and it's kind of hard to avoid that sometimes
you kind of just slap their hand away..
– So where do you work at?
– For this fifty–fifty.
You do your thing I do my thing and that's just how it goes really for me.
Excel in your own area, believe in what you believe,
I have what I think is my truth, you have what you think is your truth,
that's how I would take it.
– Definitely most countries nowadays have a freedom of religion
and you're free to practice your religion saying no to alcohol and all that is perfectly fine,
you don't have to fit in with the others just be like one of them,
I think it's important to still keep some of an islamic aspect to yourself
even whilst living in a foreign country.
– Well I think it's interesting as well because now as society progresses
or I think every time it's taken a step forward
I believe it's taking two steps backwards as well,
so it's now slowly we're chipping away at morality
and morality comes from the latin word – mores,
most meaning one's disposition which would be in arabic called Fitra.
So slowly you're seeing erosion of identity and now we've become a culture a society that celebrates more freedom
and we're slowly bleeding out and that supersedes divine command
so we're pretty much divorced from teleology in that regard.
– So I think for me one situation that sticks out personally
was a time where I was working and it was during
the Christmas period and other Christmas parties
and so it's the standard to go to these parties
and mingle and stuff like that and so when the bosses and whatnot were coming up to me
are like – Are you coming?
I said – No.
But then they know obviously I'm Muslim and all that so they like – Look you don't have to drink
and this and that.
I'm like – No, but you know the environment,
we're not meant to be there.
So you're putting this awkward position where you have to explain yourself
as much as possible and they think that
it's not actually the reason it's some other reason but you're using your religion as an excuse
to not go does that make sense, so I was put in that uncomfortable position
so it's like makes it really hard for me to sort of disagree now.
– I feel like the practical part of explaining things sometimes
gets a bit harder a bit or good but in terms of like disagreeing like
I'm not gonna go to the Christmas party, I would personally never be hesitant with that.
I am different like that concept..
I don't want to come across being too different
but we are different and we should be proud of that
and we should be open like you're saying earlier..
– I don't think it's about Christmas parties I think this is about social issues that
not just Muslims I think every religious community..
any religious community that has like a pre–modern world view
would struggle with and this this is a broader..
– That's where we should be tackling because that's that concept of pre–modern
that's the issue because when I view my religion as pre–modern
it's almost saying that this is modern, this is more advanced, it's more suitable for our society
where in reality Islam is the most suitable for every single society,
so when I say issues in outside however controversial they may be LGBTQ or all these sort of issues that come up
and cause controversy it's like well this is my opinion,
and I'm proud to say that your opinion is wrong
and mind follows Allah and his Prothet.
– But I think the consequences are the where the issue lies..
– It's just practical like explaining that gets a bit confusing..
– I do think the explanation is an opportunity to teach others
especially non–Muslims about our religion
because they mostly get their information on media
which is not the very best of sources so when they do come to you like they ask you like
– Why aren't you drinking it or that,
I see that they ask more about the religion as well
and it gives me a chance to explain to them how it is
and teach them and I think that's a good opportunity.
– I'm gonna leave mine down because I'm a bit of fifty–fifty,
it took me three years to get my first job,
when I was in my trials and I didn't really want to sell myself out
for that reason because my name is Muhammad Hisham Malik,
it's a bit of a mouthful.
For the first for the first year I was playing with all my resumes it was Muhammad Hisham Malik
and I didn't get any responses,
– Oh we're so sorry, we're so sorry..
Second year I said – Okay I'll give him a little bit.
So took Hisham off,
so it became Muhammed Malik and that was like there for two years.
and I still didn't hear anything.
I was like – Okay I'm not gonna go for Anthony
or whatever I'm not gonna give any of that or Mark,
but I just kept it but slowly but surely I got it but it can be..
I'm from England so the thing is
over here you have this what's the word Maui,
I'm not a fan of that word so when I first started school over here
– Oh Maui Malik this this that.. I'm like sorry my friend, you know my name is Muhammed Malik..
– It's the name of the prophet is Mohammed..
– Yeah true but obviously if they're non–Muslim,
just basically respect it's Muhammad Malik.
In England we have Mo, here we have Maui, I'm a fan of neither.
– I put No, not because I don't think it happens
I'm sure it happens to a lot of people I haven't personally experienced it myself too much,
I think most of the people I've looked at have been arab or Muslim,
anyway but not because I haven't experienced it but because the question said Do you fear?
And I don't know I feel like if somebody doesn't want to hire me
because of my name I'd rather not work there,
I heard a story in the UK where a couple of brothers
went applied for a job they refused a handshake with a woman
and they got denied a job on that basis and so they took him to court
and made I don't know how many hundred thousand pounds.
If you stick to your fundamentals
and you stick to the Deen Allah will bless you in ways that you can't imagine.
I've heard a story of a brother who went got a job
asked for a prayer space and they sacked him,
he went for the lawsuit and the whole company
had to shut down because they had to pay him out,
so it's something that does happen,
I don't fear if it happens then Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala
will reward me and bless me in other ways for sticking
rather than like changing my name or trying to somehow compromise it.
– There should be like a new tactic for Muhammad
to just try sue the company, make a lot of money and move on to another company.
– I'm waiting for it to happen to me.
– I think like essentially at the end of the day
as you mentioned and rightly so is
that if they're not going to hire you based on your name or who you are or all that
why are you going to work for them? like what's the point?
At the same time I also see a lot of successful entrepreneur Muslims or entrepreneurs
or business owners or doctors and all that and so I look to that for inspiration and be like
look regardless I know a lot of people had a lot of struggles in certain times
being able to achieve what they wanted to achieve in a certain field
but look at all these people if they can do it then I can do,
so I always drive inspiration from them as well.
– I'm sure, I don't have personally had like a good practicing family..
– Obviously and as I said before
it's really important to make the point that
it's not just my experience as a someone who comes from a non–Muslim family,
a lot of people who come from Muslim families have families that as Tanzim described extended families
and communities that are kind of hostile to practicing.
Obviously for me when I first told my family about that that I decided to become Muslim
and I taken shahada
they were like – Oh but like can't you just sort of
do it but not really say that?
I'm like no, I can't do it.
They'd be like – Oh but you know all religion..
Like they would try like they'd make a very concerted effort
to try and dissuade me from identifying as a Muslim
and then also from practicing it as a Muslim.
Like I said I have a very good relationship with my family
and I wouldn't say that that's any fault of theirs,
it's more just like conception about the world,
and the concept about religion and for my mom it was actually her fear
that maybe one day if i identified as a Muslim
someone would like come and attack me in the streets,
like she remembers very vividly the Kerala riots,
well what if he's walking around in a turbine one day
and someone comes and hits him,
so it wasn't he wasn't necessarily out of that bad place
of like – Oh no, he's a religious person, but it was more like that fear of like
what's going to happen to him or is it going to make his life,
is he going to put a target on his head.
But I certainly feel an immense amount of pressure as to how you deal with that it's really tough I think,
having good relationships with your peers Muslim peers is very important,
we all know now in our deen like the importance of company,
good company, having that kind of environment around
where you have Muslims is incredibly important in terms
of overcoming that hostility from family, extended family.
– It depends on your energy if you're really out there an outgoing person
kind of connect with everybody right so that's why I'm like,
because I was brought up in current school
a lot of non–Muslims are back home in England,
and then it really wasn't a problem it wasn't up until I came over here
and had somewhat of the misfortune going to..
that's not a problem for me.
– I'm surprised so three of you said yes, that's a bit surprising
I mean we live in a normal country so how can you be troubled by that?
– Not in the sense that I can't hold a conversation
like I have an issue the same like like anyone
that you speak you can get along, it's not an issue but in terms of like
I find it more difficult because the sort of activities
that you're going to go out and do you, you're going to go out with your friends,
what sort of things, topics of conversation are sometimes a little bit different habits,
stopping to pray is I find more difficult than with non–Muslims
and also I think just generally I grew up in this area,
I went to islamic school, I've generally always been around Muslim friends,
non–Muslim acquaintances probably more than anything,
that I get along with not have an issue with
but it's a lot easier to have
a good strong constant relationship but somebody who shares the same habits
and other practices that you do.
– I definitely feel that in the sense
that like I guess with me I did hang around with
a lot of like non–Muslim friends when I was in high school and stuff
and I can get along with them fine, we have a lot of fun together, play sports
and all that sort of stuff but it's just down to when you're not doing that
when you're talking to them outside and stuff
it's never going to be about trying to improve your Deen,
I guess as a Muslim that's what you want to become better at
and so when they fall into activities that aren't islamically
sort of sound at times like i don't know it could be clubbing
or you know dating or all that sort of stuff
it's not going to help you because that's normal for them,
you get what I mean
so that's why it's at the end of the day it's like if you have your own close Muslim group of friends
that are trying to become better Muslims,
it just becomes a lot more easier because you've got a support network
whereas you don't really have that at times as a normal,
it can only go so far, they can be like – I'm nice to Muslims
and I respect your beliefs and all that but that's where that's basically the ceiling of it,
does that make sense?
– Even though the question was like socializing I believe, I actually don't think it's harder for me to socialize with anyone,
I just talk to anyone I don't care, I'll talk to a wall,
I suppose it's about that like the extent of that relationship,
it can be quite difficult for me if that person doesn't understand the most fundamental thing about me
which is my iman and my belief,
so that certainly makes it difficult to become very intertwined in the lives of non–Muslims.
– For me this is a bit of a grey area because I can make really good friends with normal Muslims
but I also really can't, I don't know how to explain it,
I think it comes down to a bit of culture as well
because I've made a lot of friends with people of south asian persuasion,
because essentially our cultures are kind of similar
and um even if they're not the same religion if they're hindus
or christians they still believe in God
and they still do some of the stuff that we do
and I can make friends.
When I went to uni there was a lot of people of like non–Muslims
but there were completely different people I've never met before
and I tried being friends with them and although I got to a certain extent it was quite hard
because they go sometimes they go above and beyond and it just becomes hard to fit in.
– I think we shouldn't be so tribal as well,
like one of my best friends is Christian and the reason is because like I think
his life is more moral than some of the muslim circles that I know,
I think it's it's obviously up to people's experiences
but definitely like we shouldn't have this claim
that non–Muslims are immoral
and Muslims immoral and my friends are Muslim
and therefore because they agree with our fundamentals some Muslims don't.
– You're really exposing everybody,
gender boundaries..
– I'm gonna say no because regardless of how comfortable and how well you do as an individual,
our society is just so mixed that you can't avoid it.
Does that make sense?
It's not that I personally find it hard,
it's just that in our social settings, in uni, in work
and whatever you just can't avoid it.
– I don't really know, I didn't actually put anything up because
I don't know how to to begin to dissect that,
from my own experience I suppose in my family
it's obviously something that I grew up with,
it was very relaxed, you don't have the idea of gender segregation,
I mean naturally if you add like a family gathering
or a barbecue whatever the guys will talk to each other,
the women will talk to each other, that's across most cultures I think.
That was one of the main things kind of culture shock for me coming into Islam,
is like the division between the genders because I never experienced that before.
There were people who wouldn't speak at all to the opposite gender
and I was like quite surprised by that at first,
I was like – Wow that's strange.
So I don't know exactly how to say I navigated or how others navigated,
I think it's very complicated like you said in this society
and in this day and age in particular.
– I think most of us even like we almost end up this confusion
about what he even allowed and not allowed to do as a Muslim,
it's not very clear.
Some things are very obvious but like just day–to–day interactions often we get
– what am I allowed to do, what am I not allowed to do.
– And even at work like sometimes you just spend so much time
and you have to like end up being somewhat friends,
you know what I mean because like how can you operate,
you're just like some dude weird misterious guy..
– When you do make for it..
when you do come in contact with other gender
sometimes they just especially if they don't know if you don't put boundaries they already
without you knowing they touch you or touch your arm or your face
and it's kind of hard to avoid that sometimes you kind of just slap their hand away..
– So where'd you work?
– No at school and all that.
Some people are a bit handsy
but so you have to set up boundaries early on
which I did, don't worry.
– I'm not going to question anything, mate.
– I'm just trying to say it can be difficult
especially with the handshake thing that can get super awkward
and even like with high fives,
they get – oh high five and you're just like..
how about air five that's the best.
– I think the touching thing is one thing
I think the bigger problem is like a touch
like if you take someone's hand that's a single moment,
but when you're at work with someone eight hours a day, you develop a friendship,
a relationship this is my work buddy,
you spend more time with them than you do with your family,
even with your wife or something in some cases, that's where you end up with an issue
which is like how close am I getting to this person
because the issue is not just the physical boundaries also an emotional sort of
or like you can't have that sort of relationship with somebody.
– I think dr Jonathan Brown actually recently mentioned that
they're having to discuss segregated workplaces in parts of the States because of issues
of like complaints about harassment or complaints about..
like a woman would claim that she was harassed
and then the man would say well no that didn't happen, you're making it up.
And so to just get to do away with all of that they're like
– You know what we're going to segregate it that's had to come into a conversation.
– A beautiful quote which is like for a functional society
the best way to achieve it is mixing between ages
and splitting between genders whereas our society has the opposite
and Islam promotes when you mix between ages
the elder and the young are motivated by the young
and the motivated to provide more for the future domains
and the young learn from their wisdom.
We get opposite where we get so much like corruption that happens
because we're mixing between genders and then we are not appreciated.