(upbeat music)
- One of the main questions many people may have
and you see this, unfortunately, all too often
is people saying, why do you have to keep trudging this up?
Can't we just move on.
It's been 400 years now.
Can't we just move on?
What do you hope would be sparked by the conversations
that come from a magazine
that delves into slavery like this?
What do you want someone who sits at home and says
they go, Nicole, I'm why tonight.
I had nothing to do with this
and I don't know what you want me to do.
What would you hope people take away?
- That's a great question.
Let me just say for the record
nobody wants to get over slavery more than black folks.
(audience clapping and cheering)
It's not to our benefit, right?
The fact that our nation can't get over slavery
has not benefited black people for a single day.
But that's the problem.
We've never dealt with the harm that was done.
I'm 43 years old.
And my father was born into a Mississippi
where black people couldn't vote.
Black people couldn't use public facilities.
That was all perfectly legal.
We're not far removed from this past at all.
And there's never been any effort to redress that harm.
So what I hope that people would take from the magazine
every single story in the magazine starts with America today
and shows how these things about American life
that you think are unrelated to slavery actually are.
And I hope by confronting that truth
maybe we can finally start to repair the harm that was done.
And then finally start to live up
to be the country of our ideals.
(upbeat music)
- There's been so much talk about history and heritage.
People talking about monuments in America.
People talking about the history of America.
But in many ways, Bryan, you would argue
that the history people wish to
remember of America is not really the full story.
What is your project about?
- Well, it's about confronting the fact
that we're not really free in America.
I think we're burdened by a history of racial inequality
that we have not addressed.
And it's become like smog in the air
and we all breathe it in
and it doesn't take much to expose
these conflicts and tensions.
And so we're trying to change that.
We wanna talk about some things
that haven't been talked about.
I think we need to talk about the fact
that we're a post genocide society.
Before white settlers came to this continent
there were millions of native people who were slaughtered
through famine and war and disease
but we didn't call it a genocide.
We said those people are savages.
And we created this narrative of racial difference
this ideology of white supremacy.
And that's what ushered in centuries of enslavement.
And for me, the great evil of American slavery,
wasn't involuntary servitude.
It wasn't forced labor.
It was this ideology of white supremacy.
This idea that black people aren't like white people.
And we never really addressed that.
If you read the 13th Amendment, it talks about dealing
with involuntary servitude and forced labor,
but it doesn't doesn't talk about ending
this ideology of white supremacy.
And because of that, I don't think slavery ended in 1865.
I think it evolved.
And it turned into decades of terrorism and violence.
And we don't understand that history
and that's why we started this project
between the end of the Civil War and World War II.
Thousands of African-Americans were pulled
out of their homes.
They were burned alive.
They were hanged.
They were brutalized.
We're not interested in talking about this history
'cause we wanna punish America, right?
I think we wanna liberate America.
We wanna get us to the place where we can actually look
at one another without this narrative of racial difference,
this ideology of white supremacy limiting who we are
and what we can be.
(upbeat music)
- In many ways you argue that Obama's presidency
and black leadership in any way, shape or form is
in some way contributing to white supremacy
which is a very complicated argument.
What do you mean when you say that?
- I don't think Obama did anything,
but be a human being and go into the office
and just happened to be somebody
to check black on the census form.
It's the reaction to that.
It's always the reaction to the ordinariness.
To the Bush won.
So the middle class ness of normal
everyday black people and how well that accords
with what this country claims to value.
That's always a threat because it automatically
undermines the suppositions of white supremacy which says
that black people don't take care of their kids.
Black people are always
killing each other ending up in jail.
There's a kind of moral judgment that can always
be made on black people.
This goes back to justifications to slavery.
And black folks who present themselves
in a particular way as undermining that.
It's always a threat to the thinking
about white supremacists.
I think that's why folks were so offended by Obama.
And I think that contributed to the birtherism,
all the sort of weird conspiracy theories
that sprung up around him.
(upbeat music)
- The KKK grand wizard emiratus David Duke.
He told his followers to vote for Donald Trump
and Donald Trump was coy
about disavowing Duke's support, right?
So by the way this is David Duke over here.
This guy here.
Yeah. This is him sporting his casual look.
(audience laughs)
He's just like, no hood, please, please.
Mr. Wizard was my father.
My friends call me grand.
(audience laughs)
Obviously a grand wizard of the KKK praising
the Republican front runner is gonna stir
up a lot of emotion.
And we saw that on CNN
as a Trump supporter and a Democrat faced off
as the super Tuesday results were coming in.
- [Commentator] Racial tension front
and center in this year's race.
Two of our commentators get
into a fiery debate on the issue.
Commentators, Jeffrey Lord and Van Jones got
into this heated debate over Donald Trump and the KKK.
- When he is playing funny with the Klan,
that is not cool.
- This is what Liberals do.
You are dividing people by race.
- The Klan divided people by race.
- You have to divide by race.
- The Klan kill people by race
and he had the opportunity and he didn't do it tonight.
- They did it to further the progressive agenda.
- What the (beep).
(audience laughs)
- Why were you so afraid of what he was saying?
And why you so afraid of the rhetoric
that's being perpetuated?
- Well, I think that America needs to wake the hell up.
Wake the hell up.
(audience clapping)
This is real.
This is a real thing.
I think you've had people, everybody says,
the Republicans or the establishment, like
why didn't they take Trump more seriously?
- Yeah.
- The whole society is making the same exact mistake.
I think we have the rise
of a right wing authoritarian movement.
And I think this guy is likely
to become president of the United States
if we don't quit screwing around.
(upbeat music)
- White nationalists, descending on Charlottesville Virginia
to protest the removal of a statue of Confederate leader
Robert E. Lee.
- [Male Commentator] In Charlottesville, Virginia,
where protests are turning violent.
- [Female Commentator] At least one person is dead
after a car plowed into a group
of counter protestors.
- President Trump turns an infrastructure event
into our rambling rant, blaming both sides
for the violence.
- You had some very bad people in that group.
But you also had people that were
very fine people on both sides.
I think there's blame on both sides.
You look at both sides.
I think there's blame on both sides.
And I have no doubt about it.
And you don't have any doubt about it either.
- First of all, a racist neo-Nazi
killed a peacefully protesting woman with his car, right?
Then the president of the United States
defended the neo-Nazis who that dude was marching with.
And this is the thing it's not once but twice.
Donald Trump said it, then three days later
he came back and said, hey, hey, you know how
I said that Nazi defending thing.
Well, I just realized that I messed up.
I didn't defend them enough.
Yeah. Yeah.
My support was here
and I was trying to get it here.
(audience laughs)
And am not gonna lie I don't know about you
but it seemed for a moment that, okay, this was it.
This was clearly not what presidents do.
After tragic national events a leader
even a mediocre leader says the things to unite the country.
To calm the tensions not inflame them.
And especially not express sympathy for Nazi sympathizers.
But today in America,
(audience laughs)
We're not even at that point
7 months into his term.
41 months to go by the way
and the president of the United States
has officially legitimized white supremacists.
Basically saying we need to see things
from the Nazi's point of view.
You know march a mile in their boots.
(upbeat music)
- [Interviewer] Are you willing tonight
to condemn white supremacists
and militia groups and to say that they need to stand down
and not add to the violence
and a number of the incidences as we saw in Kenosha
and as we've seen in Portland.
- I'm willing to do anything.
I wanna see peace.
- [Interviewer] Then do it, sir.
- Do it, say it.
- What do you wanna call them?
Give me a name.
Give me a name, go ahead.
Who would you like me to condemn.
- [Interviewer] White Supremacists.
- Stand back and stand by but I'll tell you what
I'll tell you what somebody's gotta do something
about Antifa and the left
because this is not a right way.
- Wow. There you have it folks.
Trump had an opportunity to be like white supremacists
I don't (beep) with you.
Instead he's like standby guys.
I never know when I'm gonna need you.
Telling white supremacists to stand down
and telling them to stand by
are not the same thing, right?
That one little word makes a huge difference.
Like the difference between a blowout and a blow job.
Do not ask for the wrong one at Supercuts.
Again to the staff at Supercuts I apologize.
I hadn't slept and I didn't read the menu properly.
And even for that non condemnation,
Trump had to be dragged into it.
No president should ever have to be pressured this hard
into condemning white supremacists.
It's the easiest thing.
Trump did it so grudgingly,
he was like one of those guys who refuses
to make real apologies.
What I'm supposed to apologize
for tailgating at your dad's funeral.
Fine. I'm sorry.
I'm sorry that you're unable to have a good time.
Some of us are still living.
And by the way you know that you've truly botched
your condemnation of a hate group
when that hate group says, thank you for the endorsements.
- [Commentator] The Proud Boys a far right extremist group,
immediately celebrating the president's comments
on social media.
- They went nuts on social media celebrating.
They put out those words as a rallying cry.
Stand back, stand by.
- Within minutes, the groups members were posting
on private social media calling Trump's comments,
quote, historic.
The New York Times reports
that some group members labeled it
as a tacit endorsement of their violent tactics.
While another posted the group was already seeing a spike
in new recruits.
- Yes. Thanks to Donald Trump's failed condemnation.
This hate group is now seeing an increase in recruits.
Which means in the history of television
that might be one of the worst answers ever given.
The Proud boys liked Donald Trump's answer so much
that they even adopting it as their new slogan.
And that actually might piss off Trump
because the one thing he definitely believes in
is getting royalties.
Whoa, whoa nobody should be advocating the supremacy
of the white man without giving Donny his cut.
I don't know why at this point,
people are still acting surprised when
he refuses to denounce white supremacists.
Because as you may remember
this is not exactly a new thing for him.
- I think there's blame on both sides.
And you had some very bad people in that group
but you also had people that were
very fine people on both sides.
- [Interviewer] Do you see today white nationalism
as a rising threat around the world?
- I don't really.
- There are white supremacist groups
and individuals like that who support you.
Some of whom you've even retweeted.
- Well that I know nothing about.
I don't know about retweeting.
You retweet somebody who turns
out to be a white supremacist.
I know nothing about these groups that have supported me.
- Will you unequivocally condemn David Duke
and say that you don't want his vote
or that of other white supremacists in this election?
- I don't know anything about David Duke. Okay.
I don't know anything about what you're even talking about
with white supremacy or white supremacist.
You wouldn't want me to condemn a group
that I know nothing about.
I have to look.
If you would send me a list of the groups
I will do research on them.
And certainly I would disavow if
I thought there was something wrong.
But you may have groups in there that are totally fine
and it would be very unfair.
So give me a list of the groups and I'll let you know .
- Okay. I'm just talking about David Duke
and the KU Klux Klan here.
- I don't know, honestly, I don't know David Duke.
I don't believe I've ever met him.
I pretty sure I didn't meet him.
And I just don't know anything about him.
- Yeah. It's actually hard to keep track of all the times
that Trump had the chance to be anti racist and didn't.
The only thing he avoids more than condemning
white supremacists is paying taxes.
So look, I get why his supporters wants to act like
Trump's proud boys moment last night was some kind
of accidental unintentional gaff.
But if you see someone making the same mistake
over and over again,
at some point you have to accept that it's not a mistake.
It's their belief.
(upbeat music)
Let me ask you this.
You talked to some people who
and without your show I don't think you'd ever talk to.
Whether it's people who are in the Klan
used to be in the Klan, very racist, very homophobic,
very anything.
And I'm not gonna lie you seem to get along well with them
as human beings.
And you are very black as well.
You know what I'm saying?
It's not like you sneaking in
you are a black person.
Exactly. You come in as a black man.
They see you as a black man.
And then you guys seem to get along.
- I'm huge.
Nine feet tall and 400 pounds.
- So I wanted to know, have you maintained any type
of friendship with these people post the show or
do you get to know them as human beings?
Or are they just cordial to you as Kamau Bell
as an individual and then now like cool with black people?
- Yeah. I mean, certainly it's not
I would say it's not American history X
where I do laundry with them for an hour.
And then they come out and go, man
I shouldn't be a racist anymore.
It's not quite that easy if only it was.
But I do think people go, oh, this is not what I expected.
I see this guy differently.
It's not gonna happen in one day or one conversation.
The thing I understand about this whole racism discussion is
that in the whole ending of racism
it's a long struggle and it takes time.
- But do you think from your experience
that some of it could be helped
by the conversations or that's just
like a hopeful mythical world that we sometimes dream of.
- Some of it can be helped by the conversation,
but if those people don't go into the voting booth
and vote based on what they learned in the conversation
then it's just a conversation.
So I think sometimes we over prioritize the conversation
me and that racist had a conversation that felt good
but it's actually like about how people evolve over time.
And I think that's the conversation part of that.
(upbeat music)
- Your writing has,
made a lot of people feel uncomfortable.
A lot of white people
a lot of white men in particular uncomfortable.
And that was before your current book, Mediocre.
Which is about the dangers of white male mediocracy.
Talk me through what that means.
- Absolutely. So this was a book kind of written
out of frustration.
If you write on issues of race and gender in America,
especially since 2016
you see all these think pieces,
why is Chad so angry?
Why is this white man so upset?
And what I wanted people to look at
was the political structure behind the time that we're in.
I wanted people to understand that this rise in
hate-filled racist violent white male political ideology
is by design.
And so I wanted people to look at that
because we have to change how we act and what we value
as a society if we want to solve this problem.
So that's really what we're looking at.
Is a history in America of
how we have actually made it beneficial
or at least seemed beneficial
to white men to act like the only definition of success
is power over women and people of color
and really what it's cost us over multiple generations.
- When you look at this conversation though,
obviously there's so much resistance.
There are a lot of white men who are like, I have nothing.
So how dare you say that I have any of this mediocrity
or this power that comes with it?
I don't see any of this power.
I live in West Virginia.
I have no money.
I have barely any food.
Where is this white power that you are speaking of?
How do you try and
if you even do try explain that
to white people in those situations.
'Cause oftentimes I find that will be some
of the base that is riled up.
Where they're told you have this privilege
and these positions and they go, but I don't see it.
- Absolutely. And I think it's important to recognize first
and foremost privilege is relative, right?
So if you're standing, if you're an average
everyday white men standing in a room with Oprah Winfrey
chances are in many areas she has more privilege than you.
But if she is standing next to a white millionaire
or billionaire chances are, she has less privilege.
It's situational depending on where you're at.
But I think it's really important to recognize
that white supremacy in this country is a pyramid scheme.
So it's really the idea you play along
and you will have more.
You will have more than black people.
You will have more than women.
Often it doesn't work out that way.
And that's part of why we see the anger is
that people bought into this system.
They're playing along.
They'd been promised and they voted accordingly.
They've spent their money accordingly.
That their greatness is coming.
And when it doesn't, who do they blame?
Often people like me, people like you
because they've been told you're supposed to be better off.
And so a lot of that anger that says I don't have that.
I don't have it ignores the fact that
you weren't probably ever going to get it
but you were promised that
and that becomes a political problem.
And it becomes a part of the violence
that often some white men end up supporting.
- There's no denying
as America becomes more and more diverse
the group of white men that we are talking about
are going to become more and more resistant
'cause they're going, oh, I'm losing my grip on
as you said, that promise of my place in America.
So how do we get to a place where we invite people
into the conversation without pandering
but still invites people in and going like, oh no, hey
this is for everybody's benefit.
It's not about you losing and me winning
it's about everybody winning
as opposed to buying into the pyramid scheme.
- It's definitely something I talk about
a bit in the book, right?
The real harm that this actually does to white men.
The system.
Being told that your payouts coming in, it never does.
And the sense of failure that often accompanies white men
when they've bought into this.
But they think it's also really important to recognize
that I personally am not writing
to create kinder, gentler white men.
I'm writing because I am a black woman being harmed
by this system and the way it works.
But I do hear from white men who say,
you've named a thing I couldn't name.
You've named a disappointment.
Yearning for more than I could name,
but I don't expect that.
A white man who's angry and
is completely a political opposite for me
is gonna pick up my book.
But what I do expect is
that people who know something's wrong
are gonna start looking at our values
and our systems and changing it.
And then the white men who come
up in these systems come up differently, right?
The way in which the power
that this violence has is lessened.
And that's really what my goal is.
(upbeat music)