(crowd chattering)
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>> Live, from Austin, Texas,
it's theCUBE, covering OpenStack Summit 2016,
brought to you by The OpenStack Foundation,
and the headline sponsors, Red Hat and Cisco.
Now here are your hosts, Stu Miniman and Brian Gracely.
>> Hi, welcome back to theCUBE here in Austin, Texas
sixth year of their show, 7,500 people here,
many of whom were sitting in the keynote this morning
where our next guest, Craig McLuckie
product manager with Google was on,
had Alex Polvi from CoreOS on there,
talking of course about how Kubernetes
is helping to expand kind of the OpenStack experience.
Craig, first of all, thank you for joining us.
Welcome back to theCUBE. >> Thank you so much.
>> Alright so for those that didn't catch it
give us kind of a thumbnail of what were we talking about
in the keynote, this whole OpenStack's
just another application as far as you guys are concerned?
>> What we went through in the keynote today
was a demonstration of OpenStack running on Kubernetes.
Kubernetes, if you think about it,
is just a nice way to run a distributed system.
It's a distributed systems environment.
And if you think about OpenStack, in many ways
it's a fancy distributed system.
The demo today that Alex did was OpenStack
package up the containers and running
in a cluster environment.
That had some really nice properties
for the OpenStack operator in that it made
the platform far more robust,
so Alex showed how you could tear down
one of the OpenStack services and it would spring up
on a different node.
It also made the operations of OpenStack far easier
in terms of versioning, updating and managing
the lifecycle of the various OpenStack components.
>> Yeah, do we see that?
Obviously people know about Kubernetes.
It came out of Borg at Google so obviously
it's done a lot of things at scale,
people are very, very excited about it.
Talk about the Kubernetes plus OpenStack integration.
Where are those things coming together?
How are the two organizations working together?
The CNCF and The OpenStack Foundation?
Talk a little bit about that. >> Sure.
So if you think about it, let me kind of give you
an example from my previous life,
the first product I worked on at Google
was a product called Google Compute Engine
which is a simple infrastructure service offering
that just provides basic primitives for folks
that want to run, so you can get a virtual machine,
you can get a disc, you can network
which is very much like OpenStack today.
>> Right. >> So Compute Engine
is a decent analog from OpenStack.
When we built Compute Engine it was built
on top of Borg which is our internal infrastructure.
It's our internal infrastructure management framework.
Because it was built on Borg,
we got a lot of nice properties.
It made it a lost easier for us
to actually deal with operating at scale,
to update, conversion and provision all of the subsystems
that were actually running Compute Engine.
So when I think about OpenStack,
it's a very close analog to what we had inside Google.
Today, you see a lot of folks
that are building and managing OpenStack deployments
and they're starting to experience some issues with that.
One of the key issues that they experience
is challenges around achieving very high levels
of operational efficiency so one of the nice things
about cloud native computing is that it provides
a more effective way to pack and schedule
and make intelligent decisions
around where things should be run
so you get more out of your infrastructure.
The OpenStack community is really hungry
to actually drive up the aggregate efficiency of OpenStack
and so bringing in a technology like Kubernetes
is a great path to do that.
The other thing that we see a lot of folks struggling with
is just the operational life cycle.
OpenStack's a very complex system.
It's got a lot of moving pieces
and they just want a better way
to start thinking about delivering
and integrating and managing those pieces.
By introducing Kubernetes
or cloud native computing paradigms
they get all that utility out of it.
Now if you think about the relationship
between the Cloud Native Computing Foundation
which is a foundation that was established
to promote these cloud native patents,
container packaged, dynamically scheduled,
micro service oriented solutions,
it's not intended to created a closed system.
It's really, the charter was around the promotion
of these patents and the promotion of these technologies.
OpenStack is an obvious place that can benefit from
this approach to managing applications at scale.
Our aspiration in terms of these two foundations
is, one, to introduce some of the cloud native
computing technologies into OpenStack
so that the OpenStack community benefits
from the efficiencies, performance and reliability
that cloud networking brings
but also that the OpenStack supports
the broader cloud native paradigm
because OpenStack's done a great job,
for instance, of integrating the network
and storage components.
We don't necessarily want to go and replicate
all of the awesome work that community's been doing.
So we'd love to find ways to use
a lot of what OpenStack's done
in terms of the on prem cloud pieces
and then create these sort of blended solutions
that introduce the technologies in a complimentary way.
>> One of the things when you guys first sort of,
it was surprising to a lot of people
when Google said, "Hey, we're in on Open Stack.
"We're going to be part of the foundation."
People went, "Oh, okay."
People tend to look at the large web scale,
three big and they go, they have their own technology
and OpenStack was kind of private cloud.
You've talked about it in a hybrid cloud perspective.
Google does a very good job of running open source software
and turning it into a service.
Whether its SQL or Kubernetes or containers.
Can you ever imagine a time when the Google Cloud Platform
will say I can give you, essentially OpenStack
as a service and help with that hybrid?
Or is that the wrong way to think about
how Google thinks about OpenStack for hybrid cloud?
>> I can't talk to the specific strategic future.
>> Sure. >> But I don't think
that scenario's too far fetched.
You know I'd love to be able to get to a point
where the demo that we saw today,
would run on something like Google Container Engine.
>> Mm-hmm. >> And I don't think
it's too big a stretch of the imagination
to imagine a world where we could package up
a lot of the OpenStack tools
and create these blended experiences
where you have on prem components
that are running on native OpenStack
or running on a Kubernetes hosted base
and then you can sort of burst to the cloud.
Either consuming cloud services directly
into an OpenStack environment or potentially,
even extending the management of that
into a set of cloud based resources.
I can't comment to the specific strategic futures
but I would say it's not that far fetched.
>> So Craig, it's interesting,
I've noticed in your comments sometimes
you describe Google stuff and you call it simple
and you know of course, when we talk OpenStack
it's a little bit more complex.
Simple for Google is not necessarily something
that everybody else thinks is simple.
I'm curious, when you look at kind of what you're doing
in OpenStack, the terminology sometimes,
Google's infrastructure for everybody else
is used, you know?
How do we think about kind of the usability?
What kind of skillsets they have to have?
Because most people aren't Google. (laughing)
>> No, it's actually a very good statement to make.
One of the things I get asked a lot is,
why didn't you just open source Borg?
And why didn't you just make all of the Google tool chain
available to the rest of world?
And the reality is that, even if we did open source Borg,
no one could actually deploy it.
And even if someone actually successfully deployed it,
they would find the learning curve unappealing.
When we tend to hire engineers from the outside world,
it takes them six months to learn Google's infrastructure
and at the end of it
it's like they've developed a superpower.
They're able to deploy these applications
and it makes even the most complex things tractable,
you can built these really complex systems
but the learning curve is astronomically steep
and very difficult to deal with.
One of the things that we find very attractive
in terms of working with the OpenStack community,
working with a lot of these other communities,
working with technologies like Docker,
is reducing the learning curve
not just for engineers that are using our technologies,
our cloud products, but also for our own engineers.
The learning curves are too high, it takes too long
for a new Google engineer to get spun up.
We will be actively working with communities
that have a great set of experiences.
We hold the Docker community in very high regard.
They created a very elegant and neat set of experiences
for the developer and our aspiration
is to then extend that into the operator experience.
Docker's done a really great job
of reducing barriers to entry for developers
and creating very fast on ramps
for the use of new technologies.
Our aspiration is to take
that great first five hours experience
that you get with Docker
and create a great next five years experience
as you try to build and operate the systems.
It is absolutely front of conscience for us.
We want to make the experience better for everybody
and for our own engineers as well.
And we do recognize that left to our own devices
we would probably create systems
that are perhaps a little less simple
than the rest of the world would like
but we think that working closely with partners
and being relentlessly focused on the end user
will get us to the right place in the end.
>> Yeah, so your team, you've got a number of people
on your team that are in the evangelism space
or advocate space, Sarah Novotny and Kelsey Hightower,
people who have been on the show.
>> Sure.
>> People who are really well known.
What feedback do you get from them
as they're out in the community
in terms of some of the interesting types of challenge?
Application types that people are building
in these new distributed environments?
Things that are going to take advantage
of Kubernetes that maybe you couldn't do before?
Anything sort of pop to mind that you go,
that's a cool application,
that's a really interesting challenge?
>> Yeah, I mean there's a lot of work to be done
to make Kubernetes generally accessible to everybody.
When we started off we were really focused
on the web style application and really nailing
that solution up to say 100 nodes scaling.
As we then sort of moved past that,
we're really starting to think about
much more scalable clusters,
beyond 1,000 nodes up to 10,000 nodes,
you know, 50,000 nodes.
And then we're also starting to think about
much more stateful workloads.
As we look to our next wave of applications
that we're focusing on, stateful services
are really important.
Turns out that it's great that you can build
these 12 factor apps and run them
but the reality is most enterprises have
a lot of stateful workloads.
Our immediate priority right now
for the next release of Kubernetes, the 1.3 release,
is doing a much better job of providing support
for the more stateful set of workloads.
Then beyond that, we're starting to get
a lot of interest from the community
around much more optimal scheduling for niche workloads.
From some folks in the telco industry,
they're running a lot of real time,
or near real time, processing workloads
and they have some very specific scheduling constraints
around the co-location services.
As we start to diversify we'll look at that.
I think the sort of cardinality here is web,
stateful services, big data
and then we'll start pursuing more real time
and other workloads.
>> Craig, I'm wondering if you can comment
on how Google thinks about using
and participating in the open source community?
I've heard it said a few times that,
I mean of course Google's done tremendous
for not only using open source
but I mean huge projects.
Map Reduce, you know, we probably wouldn't have
so much of the big data, analytics, Hadoop space
if it wasn't for Google done there
but I've heard people say,
"We're all running on what Google was doing 10 years ago."
Kubernetes is out there, you're here at OpenStack,
how does Google look at these communities
versus contributing and consuming open source?
>> So it's interesting, as we've shifted
from being an internet company
to becoming a cloud company,
our posture with respect to open source
has shifted pretty drastically.
Initially we would contribute open source technologies
as a way to accelerate the community
and to help sort of smooth our own sort of processes
as the upstream communities came to understand
what we're trying to accomplish.
But as we've become more of a cloud company
than just an internet company, we're looking at open
as a major competitive advantage for us.
If you think about the way that we built Kubernetes,
we released Kubernetes into the wild
very, very early in it's life cycle.
We put a lot of time and thought
into getting the basic domain model right
but Kubernetes as a project was by and large built
in the open so it's the first hosted cloud product
that was built from the ground up in the open
with the engagement of an open source community
and it created a tremendous amount of power for us
because our feedback loop was almost instantaneous.
Historically if you're a cloud company,
you'll go this long development cycle,
you'll produce something,
you'll take it some early adopter folks
and they'll look at it and they'll be like,
I don't like it
and then you have to rework the whole thing
and it creates these very slow cycles of development.
When you're running an open source,
the feedback cycle is near instantaneous
because you're directly collaborating with your end customer
to make sure that the technology meets their needs.
So that's been huge in terms of just advancing
the development cycle.
The second piece of becoming a cloud company
has been recognizing that our customers
don't want to be locked in.
We could go ahead and create
this big, beautiful bespoke technology
but the reality is, none of our customers
that we're working with want to be
in a single cloud environment.
They either want to be in a hybrid world
where you have some on premise workloads
and some hosted public cloud workloads or they want
to be in a multiple public cloud provider relationship.
Creating bespoke solutions gates our own adoption
so that's a second big piece of it.
Then the third piece of it is,
when you actually look at where are we going from here?
We're looking to replicate the model
that we brought to market with Kubernetes
in almost every other domain.
So if you think about our big investments
in machine learning with TensorFlow,
we're running that as an open project.
The work is being done in the open source community
to help people understand and make sure the product's right.
If you look at our next generation,
the successor to a lot of the Map Reduce technologies,
it's called Data Flow Engine, it's also being built
in the open as an open source project
with the engagement of the community.
We're looking to replicate this model
because, one, it just works better.
Two, is it avoids lock in.
And three is, frankly, we just get a lot
of acceleration from the community.
If you look at Kubernetes, 25% of the code base
was written by Red Hat.
The other 25% was written by a broad array
of contributors that have a very diverse
set of personalities and that diversity of view
and that diversity of experience
really creates a stronger technology base.
>> Yeah.
About a month ago you were out at
obviously at GCP Next Conference.
>> Mm-hmm. >> First big conference
for the Google Cloud Platform,
at least from a public perspective.
Diane Green was there, she's starting to set the direction.
What was the feedback you got from the market,
from customers maybe, that you expected?
Or sort of surprised you?
>> I think the biggest signal
that I've got back from that,
was like, wow, Google's all in on cloud.
I think that the one thing that that conference did
is really set the tone of our intent,
the focus that we have and our relentless pursuit
of becoming a cloud company
of moving beyond being an internet company
to actually become a cloud company.
Just the overwhelming sort of narrative
that I've heard from customers is,
"Wow, Google's really serious about the cloud thing."
And that's been great.
Beyond that the reception's been really good.
There were a lot of good announcements
and generally very positive uptake,
a lot of interest is real time.
>> Yeah, alright.
Craig McLuckie with Google, really appreciate you
coming back, sharing everything
that Google's participation in OpenStack and beyond.
We'll be back with lots more coverage here
from OpenStack 2016, in Austin, Texas.
You're watching theCUBE.
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>> It's always--